Author Topic: Painted Amal?  (Read 4629 times)

Offline Sparky

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Painted Amal?
« on: 06.08. 2012 22:19 »
I've just finished disassembling my Amal 389 followed by soaking it in a bucket of carb cleaner to remove 3 decades of crud.  After removing it, the surface felt "tacky", so I rubbed it a little with a rag and some solvent, and was completely surprised to find that a grey surface coating started coming off.  With a little more cleaning, I discovered that the entire carb, inside and out, seems to have some sort of grey paint applied which looks like a factory applied finish.  Beneath this finish is clean, bright aluminum.  Has anyone encountered this before?  I've worked on SU's before, Mikuni's, and other models of Amal's (coincentrics), but have never come across this.   

Offline scotty

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #1 on: 07.08. 2012 04:37 »
Sparky

Years ago I had a monobloc rebuilt and it came with what I thought was a  powder coated finish on the exterior.

Never came across it again  *conf*

Scotty

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Offline Flatboy 1950

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #2 on: 07.08. 2012 06:49 »
I have an NOS float bowl for a type 6 Amal that has a little scratch on it & it is definitely painted !!

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Offline LJ.

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #3 on: 07.08. 2012 08:34 »
I wonder how this or these paint finishes stand up to the added ethanol?
Ride Safely Lads! LJ.
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Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #4 on: 07.08. 2012 12:35 »
1) the carb is made from Zinc not aluminium

Amal only cast carbs in 3 alloys, brass, zinc or magnesium.

The surface you felt is most likely a produce of the carb cleaner reacting with the zinc or varnish originally dissolved coming out of solution on the carb body.
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Trevor

Offline Sparky

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #5 on: 07.08. 2012 16:56 »
Thanks for the replies to my post.  I was not aware that the Amal was zinc, so I did a little further research.  Mazak (or Zamak) as it is called is an alloy of primarily zinc with a small amount of aluminum and magnesium, and it can apparently oxidize to a dark grey with time, which could explain what I am seeing.  Now I have a carb body that partly bright zinc and partly dull grey!  It looks like I'll have to spend some time with it in the bead blaster to remove the remaining discoloration.

Online trevinoz

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #6 on: 07.08. 2012 22:23 »
I have seen many with a silver paint finish, or more accurately, the remains of it.
Trev.

Offline bonny

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #7 on: 07.08. 2012 22:41 »
A coat of paint probabily doubles the strength of the rubbish that amal cast the carbs in. Zinc or a white metal alloy used to get the maximum life out of the dies the carbs were cast in, no thought given to the life of the carb (supposedly 10,000 miles in the case of a concentric)   

Online Brian

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #8 on: 07.08. 2012 23:36 »
I've got a couple of NOS sidebowl carbies and had a look and they definitely are painted or have some sort of paint type coating.


Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #9 on: 08.08. 2012 12:36 »
Quote
A coat of paint probabily doubles the strength of the rubbish that amal cast the carbs in. Zinc or a white metal alloy used to get the maximum life out of the dies the carbs were cast in, no thought given to the life of the carb (supposedly 10,000 miles in the case of a concentric)   

You could not be more wrong if you tried .
Amal use the said same alloy as all of the carb makers used to and still do today.
Melt down any modern carb and you will find it is the same alloy
It is used because it is the best alloy for the purpose and can give a mould detail retention in the order of .ooo1". Fine detail retention and accurate sizes are exactly what you want from a carb.
Back when they were new & we rode our bikes daily they did not give any trouble because they were designed to be lubricated by petrol vapour being adsorbed into the oxide layer. Now that our bike are toys we haves problems because we ride our bikes once a month ( if that ) and the carb dries out.

The only big problem with the concentrics was the flange distortion which can be eliminated by using a soft washer against the carb and tossing the O ring .
The O ring was a specification of the bike companies not Amal, Enfield did not use them and when was the last time you heard a Connie or Inter rider complain ?

As for only being good for 10,000 what a load of total shit.
I would have put up well over 50,000 miles every year, year in year out and all I ever replaced was slides about every two years and needles with needle jets at about the same frequency as points.
The 626 on the M20 had done well over 40,000 since I put it on in 2001 and it came off the B40 where it had been for 8 years and about another 20,000 miles.
It got a new No 2 slide co I could could cut the correct cut away ( ended up at about 3& 1/4 ) and a couple of needles till I got the tune where I wanted it.
I have changed the needle twice and the slide once & it is still going strong.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the alloy of an Amal just with the idiot moron journalists who have no understanding of foundry metallurgy and write shit in magazines that gets repeated by more riders with no understanding of metallurgy till it finally becomes a totally incorrect "fact".
You can trace all of this back to an article where the "writer " ( I can not call him a journalist ) overheard the foundry men calling the alloy "pot metal " and this twit actually wrote that they were made from "old pots" where as the type of furnace used in die casting is called a "POT" thus any metal that goes in it gets called "pot metal"  regardless of weather it is zinc, lead, tin , or bismuth based alloy.
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Trevor

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #10 on: 08.08. 2012 12:45 »
Quote
Thanks for the replies to my post.  I was not aware that the Amal was zinc, so I did a little further research.  Mazak (or Zamak) as it is called is an alloy of primarily zinc with a small amount of aluminum and magnesium, and it can apparently oxidize to a dark grey with time, which could explain what I am seeing.  Now I have a carb body that partly bright zinc and partly dull grey!  It looks like I'll have to spend some time with it in the bead blaster to remove the remaining discoloration.

Zinc oxide is a relatively tough strong abrasive ( remember Zinc oxide paper for rubbing down fresh paint ?).
Give it a run in a dishwasher with a couple of those tablets with the ball in the middle.
If not that then a pot of water on a slow rolling boil,
Take it straight out and rinse in another pot of clean boiling water.
Allow the carb to cool down in the water then finish off with a light soda blast.

Bike Beesa
Trevor
(Who may or may not have been a foundry metallurgist )
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Trevor

Online trevinoz

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #11 on: 08.08. 2012 23:00 »
Let it rip, Trevor!  Say it how you really feel!
As to "O" rings, I think the main problem is the supply of too hard ones.
They are available in varying degrees of hardness, or softness if you like.
I have used fairly soft ones with no problems.
I have seen it recommended to fill the "O" ring groove and just use a gasket.   

Trev.

Offline bonny

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #12 on: 09.08. 2012 00:50 »
Let it rip, Trevor!  Say it how you really feel!
As to "O" rings, I think the main problem is the supply of too hard ones.
They are available in varying degrees of hardness, or softness if you like.
I have used fairly soft ones with no problems.
I have seen it recommended to fill the "O" ring groove and just use a gasket.   

Trev.

Yes dreadfully sorry , i seem to have upset one of the resident know-all's  *roll*. I speak from experience on amals as i commute to work/college everyday summer and winter on my old triumph, i do 5,000 miles a year , not potter around once a month. a brand new amal concentric from burlen fuel systems lasted less than a year on my rebuilt engine before giving trouble, i was going to replace it with an amal mk2 but decided to fit a mikuni instead. the mik is a copy of the amal mk2 and it lasts much longer and in fact the one i did fit was many years old and yet was as fresh as the day it left the factory. Maybe the rapid wear was to do with the fact that the bsa/triumph group told amal the price it wanted to pay per carb and amal had to build them down to that price, much as they did with joss lucas and his ignition systems ?
I'll go back to the naughty step now and never deign to give my opinion again.
bonny (who may or may not have been a qualified engineering tradesman , with two degrees in manufacturing engineering). 
       

Online Brian

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #13 on: 09.08. 2012 02:53 »
I'm not going to add much except what I've come across in my years of working on these old bikes.

Regardless of what is said the concentrics did have a period of very poor quality. Now I dont know if this was due to them using cheaper alloys of maybe bad batches of castings but I have seen and even bought one new concentric that was fit only for scrap. The one I bought new was full of defects in the casting and the slide was a very poor fit. I wont name the dealer I bought it from but I was assured it was a genuine Amal and came in a Amal box. The poor fitting slide could be put down to poor machining but the casting was rubbish, no excuses.

I have never had any problems with the sidebowls or the monobloc but the concentrics have been a PITA on many occasions.

I dont use the "O" ring on either concentrics or monoblocs, I just use a lightly greased gasket. I think possibly the fuel and heat harden the "O" ring which causes problems.

I've worked on, and owned a lot of modern bikes as well as the old ones and if I had to choose a carburetter which I considered to be the best made, most efficent and easily tuned of them all it would be the standard round slide Mikuni as fitted to most seventies japanese bikes. Having said that I would never fit one to any of my British bikes, I just cant bring myself to stray from originality that much.

Offline RichardL

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Re: Painted Amal?
« Reply #14 on: 09.08. 2012 11:58 »
My question is: Is the metal in oil pumps better or worse than the metal in carbs?
(I deleted my previous post that didn't get to the point.)