Oil seal

[muskrat]

G'day Dave,
                 sounds a bit like my rockerbox, don't want yo go back there! .
OK, your sure it's primary and not g/box. Had my doubts about seal with the scroll. You have the felt seal behind the sliding plate? You do need to get the right shouldered bolts for it to slide properly. Either look into the speedy sleeves or  make a sleeve or turn off the scroll and get an appropriate seal. 
Cheers

[alanp]

Hubie, racking my brains on this one, but it's difficult to know what's up without being there with the bits. BUT, on one post you mentioned a big gap between the sliding plate and the scroll. Maybe this is a clue for us but the gap is DEFINITELY NOT BIG. Looking at the bits in my 'stock' the hole in the sliding plate is 1.504" dia and the scroll is 1.495" dia i.e. about a 9 thou diametral difference. Please check this out since it seems to me a standard sliding plate to my dimensions is in order here before things get too bizarre.
Alan

[Hubie]

G'day chaps,

It's all apart again and I can tell you that the gap between the inner part of the sliding plate and the outer diameter of the scroll is about 5mm.  That's alot of room.  I did spin up the clutch centre to a decent speed to see which way the oil went and it is correct.  What I now think has been happening is that with the eveything bolted up there was no room for the excess fluid to drip back down into the primary so it was getting forced out of that gap.  Worse because with a seal there it was pressurising the case as well.

I have a couple of ideas though.  I could get a sleeve made up to fit the outside part of the sliding plate to extend back to where the mainshaft is but just in front of the countershaft sprocket and fit a seal there to match the diameter of the mainshaft.  Then there will be plenty of room for any excess fluid to run back down into the primary, especially with the oil slinger in place.

Either that, or fit a sleeve to the scroll and re fit the sealed bearing that I have and make up a breather for the primary.  I do note that there is a hole in the sleeve at the back of the sliding plate and I am assuming that is there to help with relieving pressure.

Hope this makes sense.

Cheers,
Dave.

[Hubie]

Stop the presses chums!

I just picked up a new oil seal form a bearing joint that matches the diameter of the gearbox mainshaft and fits perfectly into the inner diameter of the sliding plate.  This, in combination with the correct directional oil slinger I think should do the trick.

[alanp]

Hubie, thanks for the photos. Now we know that your sliding plate has a non standard centre, hence your excessive 5mm gap.
I recommend you put it back on the shelf and get a standard sliding plate or you will always have the potential of damaging the inner dia of your new seal whenever you adjust the gearbox as someone I recall has already pointed out, unless the sliding plate is quite loose and follows the gearbox easily. However, if it's too loose, oil will seep down the back of it and out.
It will never be oil 'tight' even with standard parts but it should be vastly better than you have experienced up 'til now. However, I do understand the interest in trying for a better than standard arrangement, so it's your call.
Hope this helps
Alan

[Hubie]

Thanks Alan,

I would be grateful if anyone has some pics of the standard setup to post.  I will give this a go as it can't hurt to try and see how it turns out.  Am I incorrect to think the gearbox should only move when one adjusts it?  When I tension the primary chain I would normally also change the fluid and remove the outer primary so that I can slacken off the plate to save the seal.

Cheers,
Dave.

[bsa-bill]

Dave you shouldn't need to slacken the plate, it should be free to move back and forth without putting any pressure on the seal.
If your using the proper shouldered bolts to secure the plate and it still wont move freely then I would look at the thickness of the felt washer, is it home made or perhaps a poor after market item.

Picture of bolts hopefully

[muskrat]

I think I see something strange here. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't the seal/felt supposed to seal on the scroll part of the clutch center not the main shaft ? Been a while since I've been in there (oldtimers). The '51 plunger type seals on the main shaft.
Cheers.
Friday night, wot am I doing here !!!

[Hubie]

I see!

I don't have shouldered bolts like that at all.

I am learning that alot of 'remedies' have been attempted on this bike!

[alanp]

I think I see something strange here. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't the seal/felt supposed to seal on the scroll part of the clutch center not the main shaft ? Been a while since I've been in there (oldtimers). The '51 plunger type seals on the main shaft.
Cheers.
Friday night, wot am I doing here !!!

No, the felt seal doesn't contact the scroll or the mainshaft. On the standard slide plate there is a centre sleeve fixed permanently (spot welded) to the plate and the inner diameter of the felt is larger than the diameter of this sleeve. It is squeezed between the plate and inside back of the inner primary to provide some sort of barrier for the oil getting down behind the plate but at the same time allowing repositioning of the gearbox.
!

Thanks Alan,

I would be grateful if anyone has some pics of the standard setup to post.  I will give this a go as it can't hurt to try and see how it turns out.  Am I incorrect to think the gearbox should only move when one adjusts it?  When I tension the primary chain I would normally also change the fluid and remove the outer primary so that I can slacken off the plate to save the seal.

Cheers,
Dave.

Please Hubie give us a break and get some standard bits, Muskrat needs to get some sleep
Alan

[bsa-bill]

Ok so you have the wrong bolts, now if the plate can't slide then the clutch centre bit (with the scroll) will wear the sliding plate, it should be able to centralise all on it's own, you will never keep it from throwing out oil.
Ah got to go , luncheon club awaits

[muskrat]

Just had a nanna nap, can't get past the opening credits of a movie.
No Alan I didn't mean that felt, I mean the inner diameter of that spot welded bit runs on the scrolled spigot of the center.
Cheers

[alanp]

Just had a nanna nap, can't get past the opening credits of a movie.
No Alan I didn't mean that felt, I mean the inner diameter of that spot welded bit runs on the scrolled spigot of the center.
Cheers

I thought it was odd and put it down to sleep deprivation caused by you spending too many hours helping keep other peoples' A10s on the road.
Cheers
Alan

[Hubie]

Okay, I have ordered the correct sliding plate and bolts along with a new felt washer.  Sorry to be a pain in the but, I just want to get this thing to go as it should.  Can someone please explain exactly to me how it all goes together.  I have seen from the parts book online that the sleeve/spigot part of the sliding plate goes to the outside, felt washer behind the sliding plate between it and the inner case and the scroll should do the rest.  Do I have this right?

Cheers,
Dave.

[Brian]

Maybe this will help Hubie. You should be able to do the bolts up that hold the sliding plate on and the plate will still slide. Depending on the felt the plate should slide but not be loose, it should take some effort to slide it. I usually coat the felt with grease before I install it. The scroll should be a close fit in the plate, once again this seems to vary but a few thou clearance wont matter.

This is not the perfect design but seems to work ok, you might get a very small amount of weepage but not much. I use engine oil in my primary's not ATF but plenty do and it seems ok.