A10 "start you bastard"

[nagrod]

First post here so an intro first I guess. Hopefully I've chosen the right forum section to post to, sorry if I haven't. I'm 63, semi retired and widowed, so free time is finally available. I live in NY about an hour north of NYC. The  bike is a 1960 A10 Super Rocket. I bought it is 1966, in the great state of Utah, elev. 4500 feet, and it was well beaten but all I could afford. I know the carb was set up for the higher elevation but I ran it here in NY at sea level and she ran fine. Put it away in 1970 with the best of good intentions. In '97 I started what has turned into an overly long attempt to get it running again after surviving garden sheds, basements and open garages. I had rebuilt the top end in '68, bottom end (except sludge trap which I didn't know about!) in 70. I have had the dynamo rebuilt, K2F magneto rebuilt. I fired it up after a 27 year sleep and she went on the first kick. It always was an easy starter. That was before carb rebuild, which consisted of having the Monobloc flange "unbowed" and the slide re sleeved. I have the correct gaskets between carb and manifold and the O-ring is good. Since the carb rebuild it has been a proper bastard to start, not wanting to even pop when cold. Every rare once in a while I get lucky, and then for the rest of that day it starts first or second kick. But the next morning it goes back to sleep. Being 63 I can go for about 6 or 7 kicks and then I need to go to rehab, telling it I will sell it for a boat anchor if it does not repent.
I have: used fresh fuel, checked point gap, checked valve clearances, checked timing, definitely have spark with champion N3Cs and NGK B7ESs. I have had the carb off numerous times and cleaned it. My latest improvement is to Kreem coat the tank as there was a little rust. The few times that I have gotten this bugger to run the spark plugs are black and sooty running on the center-stand, this past week I did a plug chop at 4000 rpm, again on the center-stand and they were very black. My cold start procedure is to retard the spark (it will kick me back if I don't), tickle the carb till my finger is wet, full choke, bring it up on compression and kick with the throttle cracked open over it's idle setting. In my frustration I have tried every other combination or variation of those that I can think of including changing plugs. When hot it starts with just a tickle and retarded spark, idles well and seems to run well at higher RPM on the stand. The carb is presently off the bike again and in pieces on the bench. The specs are: The body is stamped 389/47, Main jet 280, pilot jet .25, needle jet 106, The needle is set in the third slot down from the top, and the throttle slide is stamped 389.3. I have not yet checked the float level but have bought a spare main jet cover and want to do that when it is running. I also intend to drop the needle a notch. The only suspicious thing I see is that after numerous kicks the plugs do not appear overly wet, although I can smell fuel on them. I have checked the pilot jet and found no blockage.
My intention is to go for Steve's electric start so I don't have to wrestle with always getting it on the center-stand and avoiding the death defying attempts to kick start it. but want the bike running so I can get the electrical system ready first. That's the dream anyway.
So that is my latest sad story. Cold weather will be here before I know it and when I do seal her up for winter hibernation she will hopefully at least be capable of making pleasant sounding noises.

Thanks for any and all advice!

Rick D

[redbeeza]

Hi Rick,

This is just a welcome to the forum from me.  I've only recently joined the forum myself and you sound as though you know more than me anyway on this subject, but you will, I'm sure, get some useful technical responses from some of the sages.

Your bike looks cool in the photo, I like the high bars of the US bikes.  I've a '62 Super Rocket that I've been rebuilding over the last three years, she was in a poor state too.  She's almost done but has developed a (probable) magneto fault in the eleventh hour, so still in the shed.

The people on this forum have given me some helpful advice but I'm currently working in a different country from where my bike is so it's a frustrating wait until November when I can get to work again on her.  And of course by then another summer has gone. Argh!

[bsa-bill]

Hi Rick - wish I could help but I'm having exactly the same problem with my project (similar set up to a Rocket), I'm in the fortunate position of having a Flash that starts easy so have tried the rebuilt maggie and new carb on it and they work fine.
Also have exactly the same plug scenario, I'm wondering about the plugs, although they spark outside the cylinder could be they are not performing once in place.
Sorry I can't help at present but will watch this post with interest and let you know if I find anything.

[nagrod]

Hi redbeeza - Thanks for the welcome! I was at a meet in Connecticut this summer and saw a 62 SR there, very sweet looking machine! Took pics if you're interested. They are definitely worth the effort, even when misbehaving like mine.

I did some looking around in the forums and read about carbon tracks on the magneto slip ring. I checked mine and while there appears to be no carbon track the slip ring has acquired a light coating of surface rust, presumably from condensation. So now to figure out how to remove it without getting zapped and without getting bits of ferrous whatever in there. Don't want to take the mag off the bike because timing it was not fun and I think I have it spot on. I googled iron oxide as a conductor and they say not, but it can hold moisture which does conduct. It's only a very light frosting of orange but off it must come. It's summer here and usually humid. Think I'll start with scotch brite. Maybe next post will say it's running!

Hi Bill - I think you may have helped me on another list over the years! Went to post this one and saw your reply. Any solution I come up with I'll post here. I was wondering about sparking under compression, the rust on the slip ring might cause that if it is conducting. How hard can this be!

[a101960]

How far have you got your mixture screw screwed in or out. Try it at about 1 1/2 turns. I adjusted my mixture with a colortune, and it was along way out. I reset the mixture at 1 1/2 turns and it transformed the starting. By the way in the summer time you should not really need the air slide to start up. For reference I use N3C plugs. The colouration can be misleading. Mine are black around the rim and a coffee brown colour in the centre. My carburettor is a 389 and is set up as follows. Slide 3, main jet 430 (was 420 more of which anon) pilot jet 25, and 106 needle. The needle is on the second from top notch. The reason I went from a 420 to a 430 main jet was because I suffered from pinking (pinging) under load. Going up to 430 has not effected a cure for this problem. I would suggest that you first check out the HT leads. If there is any discolouration cut the leads back until you see nice shiny copper. The leads can corrode quite quickly at either end. If the corrosion is only light, the conductor will have a black appearance. If the corrosion is more severe the conductor will be a bluish green colour, and it is quite possible that it it might have turned into powder inside the insulator. Try closing the plug gap up a bit to see if that makes any difference. One thing that I learned about plugs is the fact that just because they are new it does not mean that they are serviceable. I put a new set into my car and it would not pull under load. I refitted the old plugs and the problem went away. One more thing full retard is to much. Retard only about one third. Tickle carb as you describe, ease engine over two times to suck in the fuel. Then ease just over compression and kick down smartly, with little if any throttle.  I think that you are flooding it.

John

[bsa-bill]

Hi Ian - you might have a point to consider with pilot jet, I have many but all 30? I think I'm going to try 25 in both the Rocket spec and the Flash as the flash runs rich with colourtune and can't be weakened enough with a 30.
Just bought some jets (main) I see there made by Wassel - UMMMM

Have a photo of the reason my project stalls from time to time - watch this space for "My other Beeza is"

[BSA_54A10]

Kreem in the tank was not a good idea.
It dissolves in modern unleaded and when enough dissolves the fuel ( no it is not petrol) will become non volatile.
Modern Fuel is really a light oil with some aromatics to allow the engine to fire up from cold.
Some goes off in a day others might take a week or a month, but all of it goes off.
It is not designed for carbs, it is designed for computer controlled fuel injection.And even these engines can not burn it properly whichnis why your car has an "after burner" on the exhaust deceptivily called a "catalytic converter "
When it goes off there are no low temperature volatiles left so it will not burn when your engine is cold.
Once hot the light oil will vapourize just enough to start .
It also absorbs water like dunny paper.

Next problem is plugs.
There is almost no quality control on standard plugs because there is no profit on them.
The black soot on the plugs at idle is most likely all of the stuff which will not burn, not carbon from rich burning as it was when you were young and petrol was petrol. If it is "oily" looking and highly conductive so effectivly shorts out the plug under compression. Better ( much more expensive ) plugs like platiniums or iridiums will help a lot to overcome this.

Now also look at your plug leads.
They must either be solid copper or spiral wound, not low noise or supressed silicon type car leads.

The key to this is that it runs well and starts easily when hot.
It is not a unique problem to you we all suffer and it only going to get worse.
Put it back together set to the original settings start it ( or bribe a local lad to start it ) go for a nice 20 minute run, come home and do your standard carb tuning sequence.
Put some spirits in a fine spray bottle and when the bike is running spray around all of the places where air can leak in and look for the engine picking up speed or blowing smoke. If no signs of a leak turn it off & see what it is like the next day.
If things are still bad then drain the tank and go buy some different brand of fuel from a different outlet and see if that makes a difference.
Some ( not as young as they used to be ) riders I know have resorted to using diesel starting sprays to start their bikes when cold. Once hot they work quite fine.

Most of our members put fresh fuel in their tanks every time they use it and when they get home drain the tank and tip the fuel into their car. We just about universally run a fuel stabilizer in our fuel and most of us in Sydney Aust use a product called "Flash Lube".
When I lived in the city the fuel from the local servo would go off in a week.
I used to buy my bike fuel from a chain that imports all of its fuel and their stuff seemed to be quite stable and lasted for months but when I refilled my tank on a run found that I had to "tweak" the carb because it either would not idle or idled ay 2ooo rpm so I keep a small screwdriver in the pocket of my riding jacket abd the first time I stop after refuling I lean down and adjust the throttle stop screw.
Shortly I will be buying some extended ones with thumb wheels on the end to make this easier.

I now live in the "bush" and find that the fuel that I get from the same brand that used to go off in a day in the city proper now takes about 6 weeks to go off.

You will probably find that your carb settings will be a little richer than specified and this is normal for using modern "fuels" in a carby engine unleaded fuel consumption is generally 10% to 20% higher than it was on leaded Petrol.

[nagrod]

Let me start by saying it started!  I put all my pieces back together yesterday afternoon, tried cleaning the slip ring, put in fresh plugs, and gave it the usual 6 or 7 attempts with the usual non results. Then John's post came in. My first thought was "that's too easy... but worth a try." So I figured one step at a time and started with the pilot screw, setting it to 1 1/2 turns out. Gave it a kick, two more kicks and it started! I took it for a few turns up and down the street, admired the sounds and smells and shut it down. Went out this morning when it was as cold as it's gonna get in this 90 degree weather, opened the petcock, tickled the carb, retard about half, no choke and it started first kick. Too bloody easy! I will really believe this when it has done this consistently for a few days. That's a bummer about the fuel, and the Kreem coat. I usually fill 5 or 6 jerry cans with fuel to keep for the lawn mower and generator and load it with the required amount of Stabil but if I start having trouble again fresh fuel will be my first fix. I'm going to guess that temperature probably hastens the deterioration. Also, can anyone point me in the direction of platinum or iridium plugs as to Mfg and size? Anything to make life easier! Thank you again to everyone who responded! I will follow the advice offered. You will see me again quite soon as my next problem is electric, and that always makes me scratch my head.

Rick D

[a101960]

Rick

That is excellent news. The choke on my bike is purely ornamental. I cannot of course speak for others, but in my experience the carburettor tuning instructions as published in the BSA literature and other places no longer holds strictly true because of modern petrol characteristics. As I said in my previous post I could not arrive at satisfactory mixture using a Colortune. I was also unable to to do this using the BSA method. Using either method the bike would not start easily from cold. By trail and error is how I arrived at 1 1/2 turns. I have tried tweaking the mixture and it has always resulted in poor cold starting. My bike idles reliably and picks up cleanly when I open the throttle. The really crucial thing is to turn the engine over before you attempt to start it, and when I say turn it over I mean just that. Do not kick hard. My bike always starts first or second kick from cold. I am even more certain now that you have been inadvertently flooding it. There are people that will say that if you are able to start without the choke then your mixture is to rich. I have set my carburettor up for reliable starting. All I can say is that it works for me.

John

[nagrod]

It's almost a week and it's still starting for me! But I am confused on the sooty plug issue. Mine are that dull flat black that indicates richness. I am amazed they haven't fouled out on me. It seems like lots of people comment on this, is it really a fact of life now with our present fuels? I have gone from a 280 to 270 main jet and dropped the needle to the second notch from the top, just to see what would happen and the plugs remain black. I cannot get the bike out on the road yet so maybe I'm looking for trouble where it doesn't exist? But several years ago I did have the carb resleeved and am wondering if maybe the original needle and slide were not matched. I have looked over the Amal site and several others but so far cannot find any info on what size needle I should have, or throttle slide either. Anyone got any hints?

Thanks

Rick D

[a101960]

Rick,

These are the factory settings for your carb.

389/047     BSA 650cc 1959-63; Road Rocket & Spitfire (Export)  

Bore   1 5/32"     Pilot 25     Slide 3     Main jet 290     Needle jet 0.11     Needle position 2 (ie second notch from the top of the needle) Needle .106

If you are sure that you have a Super Rocket then the main jet should be 420. All other settings are the same as for the Road Rocket. I think that you actually have a Road Rocket because you have round tank badges, although that is not an infalable model indicator.

The plug colour you describe does indicate that your engine is running rich. However my plugs will give that same indication if the engine idles for to long. You really need to get it out on the road and give it a good thrash before you make any judgement. Modern fuel does not behave in the same way as leaded fuel. Try giving the mixture screw another half a turn out a quarter of a turn at a time. If the engine gives problems starting turn the screw back in. Have you noticed any black smoke when you open the throttle?

John

[orabanda]

The #3 throttle slide (standard fitment) is way too rich for my recently dynoed SR engine with 389 carb, 8.5:1 pistons, 357 cam. Black sooty plugs, etc. The 420 main jet is perfect.
We fitted a 3 1/2 slide and lowered needle to top clip position; better, but still too rich on the slide.

i have just received a #4 slide, and will install and have the machine back onhn the dyno in a few weeks.

Based on my experience with this machine, I think the #3 slide needs to be changed.

Richard

[BSA_54A10]

The original carb settings were for the original carb clearences ( bloody huge by modern standards) and real petrol.
Modern fuels require richer jettings.
Tighter clearences on the amals require leaner settings ( less air getting sucked in every where )
So to an extent they do cancel them selves out a bit.
I usually end up with the needle up one notch and the air screw in a bit further 3/4 to 1/2 turn.
And yes shitty plugs is a fact of life,
Just how shitty depends what blend of solvents come out of your local "fuel" pump.
Idleing is some thing to be treated with caution and the old method of closing the fuel taps and idling the float bowls empty is asking for trouble.

[a101960]

We fitted a 3 1/2 slide and lowered needle to top clip position; better, but still too rich on the slide.

Richard, it is interesting that you should say this because I had my cylinder head refurbished by The Cylinder Head Shop. When the head was returned to me there was a leaflet enclosed with it that advised changing the slide to 3 1/2. The rational was that the head was now much more efficient and therefore therefore the mixture would be to rich. I dutifully followed that advice and it was quite clear the engine did not like it. I reverted to the 3 slide and the engine felt much better. I am looking forward to seeing your dyno results. My RGS is currently timed at 33 degrees BTDC and still has a tendency to pink, but it has now lost its edge. At 35 degrees it accelerated well but the pinking under load rendered this setting unviable. I have read many contemporary road test reports that remark upon this engines tendency to pink even on 100 octane petrol. Below is an illustration from BSA service sheet 203 showing how to determine TDC. Not very inspiring given the emphasis they place on the need for absolute accuracy in  setting up TDC in the accompanying text.

John

[orabanda]

John,
I also was terested to read in the Eddie Dow tuning tips last week, that he recommended 32 degrees BTDC, which is what works best in my Super Rocket.
Richard