Doom and despair

[Rusty nuts]

Commiserations!

First thing I would have done is drop the sump plate & see if any debris comes out.
It is entirely possible given what you've just said & previously re primary chain that it's a gearbox issue, running it that tight will have put huge strain on the gearbox.
Again draining the oil from that may yield a clue. Much easier to remove outer cover than start stripping engine.
Can you select gears? Is the speedo cable still in one piece? if so I would suspect a calamity in the gearbox.

Rusty

[alanp]

As a quick check on the speedo problem rotate the gearbox to see if the inner part of the cable is rotating before you get back to Adrian P.
 

[Mosin]

It would appear that my optimism was short lived.

As suggested by Muskrat, Mike667 & Rusty Nuts, I dropped the sump plate off this evening. The attached photo shows what I found lurking inside...

On a seperate note I rotated the gearbox and the speedo drive cable is rotating fine. So it would appear that my brand newly refurbished speedometer is also knackered.

Right now, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to walk downstairs having typed these words to discover that my dog has cashed in his chips and my wife has left me as well...

I think I'll just pull out my old guitar and some sippin' whisky, I recon I've all the makings of a platinum selling blues track...


 

[groily]

Sorry to see those bits Mosin, a nasty discovery.
But, when you've sold a million copies of Cumbrian Big End Blues (everyone here will feel obliged to buy at least one copy), you'll be in funds - and afterwards you'll know exactly what's in the rebuilt motor. Hope the crank is salvageable and there aren't too many other bits in bad places. I'll do some sippin' on your behalf. I've found I can always rely on my dogs . . . even when no-one else wants to listen . . . .

[muskrat]

MMMM I didn't want to see that. At least it didn't want to visit the outside world. Bit of luck the crank will only need regrinding, new rod though. hows the bore & piston ? Also check that it hasn't hit the valves.
Commiserations but could have been worse, much worse.
We're all here for you.
Cheers

[bsa-bill]

Sorry to see the debris Mosin, wonder why it came off, split pin has come out obviously, maybe a lesson for us all there - use new split pins when you rebuild.
Hope your dog continues in excellent health as for the wife  - well you'll be to busy with the bike to notice

Now about the guitar blues , I just got myself a strat and if it's not beyond my 66 year old fingers and brain I intend to learn at least three cords so I can tour with Quo, can we call in when around your way?

don't worry guys I'll still mail when I'm rich and infamous

All the best - Bill

[mike667]

I think I'll just pull out my old guitar and some sippin' whisky, I recon I've all the makings of a platinum selling blues track...


 

Bummer
 - has the making for a country western hit too. I have had my old guitar and my whiskey (small batch bourbon of course) get me through more times of dispair than i care to think of! keep us posted on the what lays within etc...

[RichardL]

OK, while we're on it, I can do your live sound and Erling will produce and record. Also, let's not leave out Frank (member Cider1) who has an active band you can see at http://www.myspace.com/ootboutoftheblue .

Anyway, back to bits. Quite sorry to see this but, believe it or not, there might be a slivver of possibility for good news here. Say the cotter key's tangs broke off independently over time. Then, in short order, the body of the key works out. These small bits work their way to the bottom unnoticed. Now, the nut works itself off. It may have already been a bit too loose from the last bottom-end mechanic stopping short or backing off to  match the cassellation with the cotter-key hole. Bang! The nut falls to the bottom and gets clanked between the flywheel and crankcase without blowing through the case, then, ends at sump. Rod caps are quite tight on the studs and maybe so much so that the rod keeps doing its job long enough for the wayward nut to announce the problem.

It just seems that there would be more stuff in the bottom if the breakup was more catestrophic. We can hope, can't we.

Is this the definition of a "cockeyed optimist"?

Now, after all of your personal investment in BSA Mechanics 101 and 201, aren't you anxious to move up to the 400-level courses? (A bit of U.S. education system talk.)

Richard L.
 

[bsa-bill]

that nut might be the reason for the engine being stiff right enough - lets hope so.

out of the blue - sounds good - my kind of stuff

All the best - Bill

[tombeau]

The previous owner may even have left them in there as spares

A friend, upon stripping his Continental GT, found not only a nut, but the 2 bits of wire the previous owner had dropped in there whilst trying to fish out the nut.

Iain

[beezalex]

Mosin, my guess is that the nut was just not properly torqued (a bit of loctite doesn't hurt here, either) since the cotter pin will not hold the nut on for very long after the nut has come loose.  I'm guessing that the reason your motor started to bind is that your rod bearing shell is getting extruded between the cheeks of the big end and the rod journals.  With a crank regrind and new rod bearings, you should be back in business since your return line filter saved your Timing side bearing.  You did have a return filter, didn't you?

BTW, saw your post on the other thread about getting a TS conversion.   You should know that had you had this done before this incident, it wouldn't have made any difference.

[chaterlea25]

Hi Mosin,
Sorry to hear of your calamity!!!
Looking at the nut it is the early type, I am/was under the impression that the castellated nuts were only used
on the early models,
Any engines I have worked on have the self locking nuts????? and I am assuming your 1960 bike should have the later type!
Of course WTF do I know?

Reading the other replies reminds me, a couple of years ago my Son David bought a 1952 Ariel 350 as a non runner
It kicked over ok and had compression, I persuaded the mag to spark and David cleaned out the carb, I told him to remove the sump plate for a look!
He did this and a 5/16 cei deep nut fell out,split vertically in 3 pieces
WTF did that come from? as I know such a nut does not belong anywhere inside the Ariel engine!!
Anyway we decided to see if the engine would start after replacing the sumpplate etc
It sounded like a bag of nails when it fired up
David found a replacement engine on fleabay that turned out to be a cracker, the seller replaced it with a 650 Huntmaster unit!
Then recently I was approached by a chap who was looking for an Ariel 350 engine or bottom end to build a spare for his pre 65 trials bike, I offered him the rattly motor making sure he knew it was knackered,
he offered a good price for it as he only wanted the casings and rocker boxes etc
Something like that has never happened to me before, I'm always the poor sod who buys something only to find out when I get it home,
A, its the wrong part
B, its knackered
C, its wrong and knackered

I will disagree slightly with Beezaalex in that if you had the TS conversion done any dodgy issues would have shown up when the engine was being rebuilt!

Best Regards
John O R

[beezalex]

I will disagree slightly with Beezaalex in that if you had the TS conversion done any dodgy issues would have shown up when the engine was being rebuilt!

Well, sure, if the engine had been apart and inspected prior to the failure this would have probably shown up.  I just mean that injecting an extra bucket of dollars into the timing side bearing isn't going to keep this sort of thing from happening.

[Mosin]

OK, the current state of play is that I am in the process of removing the engine from the bike so that it can go off to Rob Wardle in Newcastle to get rebuilt.

Tonight I have removed the exhausts, carb, primary, clutch, footrests etc, but I havd hit a stumbling block with the nut on the end of the crankshaft shock absorber mechanism. Haynes, in typically simplistic language says "remove the split pin" and lock the engine by placing some blocks under the pistons before unscrewing the nut." Firstly, mine does not seem to have a split pin and I can't even see any sort of a slot or hole where one might have been. Secondly, I was hoping to keep the engine in one piece for the time being so the barrels and head are still on it, which prevents me from locking the engine using the method described in Haynes. Is there another way of doing it? The castellated nut on the end of the crankshaft seems incredibly tight and it is actually a bit mangled where some former owner has obviously had a go at it in the past.   

Simon

[muskrat]

G'day Simon,
                 is there any of the shaft protruding from the nut ? the hole for the split pin is about 3/16" from the end. It may be the PO has broken off both ends of the pin and then tried to get the nut off causing it to bind. Usually I loosen the nut before removing the clutch and put in gear with rear brake applied. 1, Another way is to hold the nut on the timing side whilst undoing the cush nut. Be careful the nut on that side is not as strong as the cush nut. 2 wedge a piece of wood or hard plastic (NOT SCREWDRIVER or STEEL) between the timing gears. 3, a bolt with the same thread as the spark plug ( M14 x 1.25 I think) rounded at the end screwed in to touch the piston on up stroke. As you will probably be throwing in new pistons I would use #3.
I am now ready for a whipping.
Cheers