Author Topic: Over reving a Trihard T120R  (Read 733 times)

Offline muskrat

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Over reving a Trihard T120R
« on: 15.10. 2024 19:45 »
G'day Fellas.
A mate bought a 1971 T120R from another friend (RIP) whom I rebuilt the motor some 30 odd years ago. On a 4 day ride a few weeks ago he was passed by a Honda four, he tried to keep up! Well that didn't last long and it nipped up.
I picked up the bike on the weekend and ripped the top end off. Mmmm that's a good one  *eek* It'll have to go out to +60 now. The other (right) side is fine. I also noticed the left side little end to be just a tad tight.
The plot thickens. On removing the black base gasket I found a lot of the green base gasket that I used back then. So it had been messed with prior to my mate getting it and they didn't remove all the old gasket *pull hair out* I'm now looking deeper to see what else was bodged.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
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Muskys Plunger A7

Offline muskrat

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Re: Over reving a Trihard T120R
« Reply #1 on: 15.10. 2024 20:49 »
DOH *ex*
The bl@@dy barrels are cracked *ex* At first I thought that ring was a water mark but it is a crack  *pull hair out*
Mate won't be happy to spend another $1000.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
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Online Triton Thrasher

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Re: Over reving a Trihard T120R
« Reply #2 on: 15.10. 2024 21:21 »
None of that was caused by revving too high.

Offline muskrat

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Re: Over reving a Trihard T120R
« Reply #3 on: 15.10. 2024 21:38 »
G'day TT.
Having a closer look I think when they bored it out to +40 it wasn't bored true to the base flange, so not true to the crank throw and thinner on one side. The base nuts, head bolts and rocker box's weren't as tight as I'd do. The pistons have no markings so are inferior after market, certainly nothing I'd use.
Other club members said he flew past them like a bat out of hell!
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Online limeyrob

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Re: Over reving a Trihard T120R
« Reply #4 on: 15.10. 2024 21:47 »
"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
In the 1970's chasing Honda 4's was the primary means of destruction for Triumphs
Tell your mate he's living history *smile*
Slough 59 GF/SR

Online groily

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Re: Over reving a Trihard T120R
« Reply #5 on: 16.10. 2024 08:03 »
Reckon that has to be a 'down to the last little washer' rebuild Musky. Nipped up?? That's a polite way of putting it!
Wonder how many flakes of 'inferior piston' are in the oilways?
If those aren't the pistons you put in it 30 years back, who knows if the skirt clearances were correct for whatever they are - looks rather as if they were inadequate or there was a lack of lube?
Presumably this'll be a new liners job now, or find a better set of barrels (and a person who can bore on centre)  . . . expensive, as you say, whichever way one goes.
Glad it's not mine. Quite enough hassle with that sort of thing this year already round here!

Playing games with Honda 4s and similar only ever worked for me, a bit, sometimes, on bendy roads, and even then  . . .  brakes - argh!
Bill

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Re: Over reving a Trihard T120R
« Reply #6 on: 16.10. 2024 08:26 »
Do we know the comp ratio of those pistons?  Look like 10 - 10 1/2?  If the engine is tuned like that and being pushed it would need racing type clearances and be like a bag of nails cold.  I had a 73 T140 and it wasn't a fast bike.  The Bonnevilles of that period are around 50-55 hp and the Honda 4s are around 65+.  Within months of the CB750 going on sale in the States the roads were littered with blown up Triumphs. *sad2*
Slough 59 GF/SR

Offline muskrat

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Re: Over reving a Trihard T120R
« Reply #7 on: 16.10. 2024 11:10 »
G'day Fellas.
I've got onto a set of barrels that are std but need to go out to +20 for $200. I'd already ordered +60 so will try to sell them.
I doubt very much that I would have used "no name" pistons (9:1), I haven't checked the clearance (will after dinner). I have flushed out the cases, oil tank and hoses. Tomorrow I'll pull the oil pump and have a good look.
I asked Rossco if he'd topped up the oil in the primary. He hadn't as he only did a few hundred miles since he got it. The primary was overfilled by about 1200ml  *eek* I'd better check the g/box. There wasn't much in the oil tank (oil in frame) either *ex*
Now to find a reputable borer, my fella died a few years ago.
OK piston to bore 0.005", filter on the sump plug had a little swarf, oil pump all good. Looks like the timing side hadn't been touched as my green gasket was there.
Rear tyre is on backwards and 15 years old as is the front. Scotsman. See what I find tomorrow.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
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Online limeyrob

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Re: Over reving a Trihard T120R
« Reply #8 on: 16.10. 2024 11:46 »
Those don't look like 9:1, i could be wrong, but are you sure?
Slough 59 GF/SR

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Re: Over revving a T120R
« Reply #9 on: 16.10. 2024 12:26 »
Those don't look like 9:1, i could be wrong, but are you sure?



The seized piston looks same as these 9:1 examples.

Online Triton Thrasher

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Re: Over revving a T120R
« Reply #10 on: 16.10. 2024 12:49 »
He tried to ride fast and the engine seized.  I’ll assume the barrel wasn’t already cracked, because that should have been obviously noisy.

Fuel starvation is common but it’s unlucky if that causes a seizure without some missing/spluttering first.

Too-tight rebores are also common, but they usually seize at moderate speed on a long hill, not very long after the rebore.

If the oil supply fails, I don’t actually know what goes wrong first on a Triumph: pistons or bearings.  Generally, if the lubrication system is working, it keeps working.

I’d venture to say those 9:1 pistons are marginally a bit high compression for a road Tri 650 nowadays.  If the ignition timing is a bit off or the main jet a bit smaller than ideal, or the petrol octane rating a bit low, you could have an acute attack of detonation that you don’t hear at high speed.

The piston top is well coked up, which raises the compression ratio, causes hot spots and signifies oil in the combustion chamber.  Oil reduces the knock resistance of the fuel.

Mine once seized because the top came loose on the Monobloc.


Online limeyrob

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Re: Over reving a Trihard T120R
« Reply #11 on: 16.10. 2024 15:47 »
Thanks for posting that pic of the 9:1. I'm genuinely surprised and would have put money on (than goodness I didn't *smile*) those being around 10:1.
Re oil, my bet would be a big end to go first. Engines that loose oil often throw rods.
It looks to me that the pistons got too big for the bore.
Slough 59 GF/SR

Offline muskrat

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Re: Over reving a Trihard T120R
« Reply #12 on: 16.10. 2024 20:07 »
G'day Fellas.
The bottom end feels fine, no "rock" of the rods at all, no (by feel) endfloat or up & down of the crank. Looking at the plugs it was fueling well, carbs will get a good service before going back on. Knowing Rossco he would have been using the cheapest fuel probably E10.
I'm wondering if the crack happened first  *conf2* Bugga I clicked on the wrong barrels. The one coming is +40 to go out to +60 so am now concerned of wall thickness and cracking again. The Cafe is out to +80 with plenty of wall left. The Trihard has a massive flange but seems to be thin in the wall.
Time will tell.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Offline Rex

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Re: Over reving a Trihard T120R
« Reply #13 on: 16.10. 2024 21:24 »
Often Triumphs "go" first on the LH or drive side, mainly due to a (semi)blocked sludge trap not letting sufficient oil through the crank.

Offline chaterlea25

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Re: Over reving a Trihard T120R
« Reply #14 on: 16.10. 2024 21:36 »
Hi All,
20 or so years ago a neighbour melted the pistons in a Harris Bonny (the bikes built by LH Harris)
Running on the motorway these bikes need both fuel taps on or the cylinder away from the "on" tap goes lean
The flakes of molten piston got absolutely everywhere even into the cranks sludge trap *eek*
A couple of years after I rebuilt it he took it to France and filled from the "green" pump which is diesel and blew it up again *problem* *problem* *problem*
I hated that fkn bike *razz* *razz* *razz*

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)