Fuel issues

[RogerSB]

Berger, this is a test I did a few years back, in the day when it was generally debated what petrol had Ethanol added to it. Today we know it all has.

https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=14409.msg120059#msg120059

Rog.

[Worty]

At present, the GF will work with any fuel from anywhere (even with a bit of diesel in it from a faux pas a long time ago).  I often leave the fuel in for a few months over winter, and it still starts fine (I do cover the breather on the tank cap to try to seal it in and prevent evaporation - if this actually works??).

As for plugs, mine seem to last forever.  I did go through a period of changing them due to running problems, but that was down to my engine falling apart and a mag starting to break down.  Since the Berger build, and a really good maggie from CB, I'm sure it'd run on cider vinegar.

[berger]

 thanks roger, well i haven't a clue at the moment because i did not go to the pub. i wanted to ride betsy but the weather was crap so i opened a few tins . now i am clueless and legless a bit like a sea dog, but the result of my experiment is ,,,,,, drum rolllll --------- 200ml of new E10 in an open jug and 200ml of new E10 in an open jug with approx 10 to 20ml of tetraboost. after more than 24 hours the E10 had reduced from 200ml to 100ml and the tetraboost jug had reduced to just over 150ml . so i think the tetra helps stabilise the crappy fuel they sell us , but it is expensive, apart from that have a nice day thankyou for listening.                      first pick with tetra second pic with no tetra , i'm going for another can 

[Worty]

Prof Bergs, I reckon.  I think you're right in saying additives help preserve the crud we're sold these days.  I have used Valvemaster Plus in the GF, and have had no problems.  Having said that, since the rebuild, I've only used premium unleaded and the bike has gone really well.  I still have a bottle of Valvemaster so may try standard unleaded and add a bit of the 'special juice' just to see what happens.

[Triton Thrasher]

what is going on??? last night i put 150ml of esso E10 in the jug and left it over night. this afternoon the jug had 100ml of something in it that didn't really smell of anything, i will check it tomorrow and see if it burns. BUT it says E10 so my question ------- is are they putting LOADS more E in it than it says on the pump?  talking of E it makes me want to go to a rave           EDIT just to add to this it looks like the 100ml that is left is ethanol , SO out of 150ml of esso E10 i have 100ml of ethanol left . i think we are being LIED to AGAIN!!

So, petrol has a volatile component that evaporates and a less volatile component that is left behind.

That ain’t a new discovery.

[mikeb]

not a new discovery TT, but I'm smiling at the thought of old guys in sheds doing amateur science experiments to prove the evils of the modern world. maybe those volatile components really are psychoactive!

[Worty]

not a new discovery TT, but I'm smiling at the thought of old guys in sheds doing amateur science experiments to prove the evils of the modern world. maybe those volatile components really are psychoactive!

They probably are if you're breathing them in

[Triton Thrasher]

It’s all fun and games until someone finds out how easily petrol vapour ignites.

[berger]

interesting so in theory the petrol, if that's what it is nowadays evaporates and leaves the ethanol, in my case then they are lying to me about only putting 10% ethanol in the petrol. 

[limeyrob]

I don't have the standard to hand, but the fine print could be interesting. The difference between "up to 10%" and "at least 10%" is significant.  As users we are assuming ts "up to 10%" but the Government determined to push its de-carbonisation agenda on us may have got the oil companies to commit to "at least 10%". The oil companies don't want this, they want to sell oil not vegetable products so they will be trying to keep to the minimum. 
Its a dodgy business, a company I'm associated with got some business with a company making enthanol for fuel.  Its a dangerous process, boiling ethanol above its flash-point in large quantities, lots of green-wash but built right alongside a large housing estate that was carefully airbrushed out in the PR photos. It was all about getting subsidies, when we pointed out it was a bomb waiting to got off and had few of the safety processes you would get in a similar sized refinery they refused to pay and became very hostile.  It would not surprise me if an enthanol plant goes up in smoke.

[RogerSB]

This a quote from (if I remember correctly) from someone in the BSA O.C. forum. I can't imagine why he would say it if untrue.

"I’m a fuel tanker driver and can confirm that the base fuel is the same for all garages, branded and non-branded. The difference is the additive injected at the point of loading. Supermarket fuel generally doesn’t have additive added which is why it is cheaper. Branded fuel usually have a summer additive and a winter additive which have different benefits according to the seasons.

When i was on the petrol the additive system went down and we had a man putting it in manually and if i recall correctly it was 5 litres additive to every 2500 litres fuel.

It was 5 litres additive to every 7000 litres of fuel for BP Ultimate!

Back in 1980, I worked on tankships running coastal.
to Immingham, Milford Haven, Pembroke, Falmouth, Plymouth, Amsterdam etc. Carrying petrol & diesel and we might load at an Esso and deliver to Shell or load at BP and deliver to Esso.
I was told a few times that it was all the same stuff for each company.
We never put the additives in but did put the red dye into diesel, it was amazing how little dye was used, can’t recall exactly but it was something like about a gallon every 100 tons."

Rog.

[Worty]

So, on further investigation, I found the following.  Ethanol evaporises very quickly, especially at higher temperatures.  Petroleum is the quickest to vaporise, followed (more slowly) by ethanol.  In the correct conditions, a gallon of unleaded can be gone within an hour.  The gummy, lacquer leftovers are largely oil residues, but if the petrol evaporates quickly, there is virtually nothing left (presumably the evaporative molecules take some of the oily residues with them).

Not sure what this says about Berg's experiment?  Maybe a large amount of petroleum has evaporated along with some ethanol, and what's left is an unequal amount of both.  Ethanol isn't as combustable as petroleum, but does have a higher octane, which (presumably) means that with a smaller measure of petroleum, ethanol is used to maintain the octane level.

I await being shot down in flames (forgive the pun) by people who know what they're talking about.  Don't want to pour fuel on the fire

[Triton Thrasher]

evaporates and leaves the ethanol,

Lighter ingredients, evaporate first, leaving less volatile components, some of which may be ethanol.

Ethanol itself is volatile. Some of it is evaporating too.

they are lying to me about only putting 10% ethanol in the petrol. 

I think you are investigating backwards from your conclusion.

[BSA500]

I get the impression that there are considerable inconsistencies. Is the fuel up north the same as the fuel down south?

No its not the same its a damm sight more expensive down here in the south

[berger]

I think you are investigating backwards from your conclusion.                                                                                   
[/quote]             triton thrasher that doesn't surprise me in the slightest