Author Topic: And now for the magneto  (Read 1655 times)

Offline Devlin

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And now for the magneto
« on: 19.04. 2023 14:16 »
Clutch etc all done time to try and get a spark, new plugs, leads, pick ups maybe, I will be making up a new wiring loom the cables are as brittle as a tattie crisp, So do I need a battery or will the mag produce without a power supply if there is anything I should need to know in the way foilbles of the mag has
Devlin
Isle of Arran 49 A7 LS

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #1 on: 19.04. 2023 15:27 »
The battery on an A10 running with magneto is only required to back up the lights. Magneto,s require regular maintenance, start by cleaning the slip ring, then clean up the points, check the pickup up brushes and the earth brush. Plenty of information within this forum literature library.
1960 Super Rocket, owned since 1966, back on the road 2012 after being laid up for 29yrs.

Offline Devlin

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #2 on: 22.04. 2023 11:48 »
I think I will remove the magneto to work on it and maybe send it off for a professional overhaul so is the drive quil splined, keyed or tapered if tapered is there timimg marks I should look for when reassembling
Devlin
Isle of Arran 49 A7 LS

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #3 on: 22.04. 2023 12:17 »
The drive spindle is tapered, with geared pinion locked inplace with a nut, you will have to retime the ignition after magneto removal, you will need an extractor to get the drive pinion off.
The biggest challenge is retiming the ignition, as you need to prevent the magneto spindle rotating whilst tightening the drive pinion nut
A lot depends on the tapers matching up, some times they need lapping to achieve a decent hold.
1960 Super Rocket, owned since 1966, back on the road 2012 after being laid up for 29yrs.

Offline chaterlea25

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #4 on: 22.04. 2023 19:23 »
Hi Devlin,
does the bike have manual or auto timing device ? if its auto then the atd unit should self extract as the nut is undone..
Have a go before you pull everything apart to see if cleaning the points and slipring wil provide sparks

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline CheeserBeezer

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #5 on: 22.04. 2023 20:57 »
Quick and easy guide to ignition timing on this page.....
https://sites.google.com/site/cheshirebsa/tech-tips

Offline Devlin

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #6 on: 23.04. 2023 10:41 »
I removed the points complete with the carrier and cleaned everything but I feel that an insulation top hat washer is missing from the bottom of pivot post as the points assembly semm to move from side to side as if not seated correctly, re
Made the HT leads at both ends ,where is the slip ring  mentioned I get no spark from the bared ends of the HT and I see no sparking at the points, admittedly I have no experience of magnetos
Devlin
Isle of Arran 49 A7 LS

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #7 on: 23.04. 2023 11:24 »
You need a pic that speaks a thousand words  . . .
See page 5 for a K2F.
Bill

Offline Devlin

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #8 on: 23.04. 2023 14:59 »
Thanks, the mag I have is on page 6 so its an auto A/R, but I am going to have to get a set of Whitworh spanners and 3/8 drive sockets as I can get into bugger all without them and it looks like I need the oil tank out of the way also
Dev
Isle of Arran 49 A7 LS

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #9 on: 23.04. 2023 18:51 »
You need the right spanners, yup. A few open-enders and rings, half a dozen 3/8 drive sockets, and you should be fine for starters. Any allen screws will be imperial too, and if you start playing with electrical bits, they are BA. All available, and I'd guess 50 or 60 imperial squid would arm you adequately for the moment.
But the oil tank stays put, don't go there unless there's another reason.
To get the mag off, it's timing cover off, ATD auto-extracted if it will, two nuts off adjacent the mag flange on top, one long one that you undo from the primary side, and off it comes.
What you do then depends on your motivation and being sure you know what you're doing - best option if you're sure it doesn't work but not sure what to do next is to talk to Cheeserbeezer on here. Same with the dynamo and / or regulator.
Bill

Offline Devlin

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #10 on: 25.04. 2023 14:21 »
Update  I have removed stripped and cleaned everything.the auto A/R  seems in good nick as do the pickups although the earth brush seems short at about a 1/4 inch and I am not convinced that the points parts are all there I made up a insulation washer for the pivot post and I now have making and breaking continuity I still.have no spark from the ht leads as I don't have the gear needed to test the windings is there a simple test I can do with a continuity meter I can also do a insulation resistance test up to 1000 v DC if I know where the probes or clips would go
Dev
Isle of Arran 49 A7 LS

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #11 on: 25.04. 2023 14:48 »
For the basics, across the points (with them open) just a few ohms, from the pickup to the body a few thousand of ohms. You need at least 500v to test insulation. Should be possible to get a good spark just by flicking the cog.
Helston, Cornwall C11,B40,B44 Victor,A10,RGS,M21,Rocket3,REBSA

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #12 on: 25.04. 2023 15:44 »
Several points there Dev.

The earth brush is quite short compared to the HT ones - too long and it will be coil-bound against the armature.

The insulator on the pivot post you mention may just be the little pimple that helps retain the blade that goes on top of the thing. Not an insulator, the opening point is earthed anyway.

To check if the bits are all there, see the exploded view attached. Ignore the circuit board - that's a 'me' thing - where it is shown there should be a simple insulator in mica or similar, between the fixed (live) point brass mounting block and the backplate. As well as a fibre  top hat insulator that goes through the backplate and through which the centre screw (also live) passes. Both need to be good. As does the third fibre insulator that isolates the small retaining screw for the fixed point block - and the blade spring of the opening point mustn't touch the brass.

Making and breaking continuity with the points assembled on the mag is sometimes hard to see. If the cb is off, you'll see it, but if mounted and the centre screw is in, you won't see much difference  between open and closed, about 0.5 or 0.6 ohm, which many meters at that low a resistance don't reliably show.

A basic continuity test of the low tension, primary, winding can be done by measuring from the cb centre screw to the armature spindle, or mag body if it's assembled with the earth brush fitted. That should show you your 0.5 or 0.6 ohm low tension resistance. Primaries very very rarely go wrong unless a wire breaks off inside.

The HT winding should show, round numbers, about 5000 ohms if you measure from the brass section of the slipring (after taking a pick-up off and turning the mag till the segment is visible) and the mag body, armature spindle etc. If there's no continuity there then either the coil has a break in the HT winding or its connection to the slipring is defective. The winding has a 'spike' on the end which just goes into a very tiny hole in the slipring and touches the inside of the brass strip mentioned, to get the energy from coil to plugs via the pick-ups and brushes. 
So the primary coil generates its small AC voltage as it rotates, assuming there's a reasonably decent magnetic field. K2Fs are good at retaining magnetism, but if there's no 'flip' every 180° as you turn the thing by hand, not good. When the points open, HT voltage is induced in the secondary winding. The earth for both windings is common, at the condenser end. Both windings plus the condenser are earthed by a 5BA screw into the brass end cheek.

The condenser is the thing that would benefit most from a megga or insulation tester, but it needs to be disconnected to test it. If it's an original it will certainly have deteriorated. Testing capacitance just needs a meter that has that function; testing for leakage involves putting the insulation tester across the two sides (live and earth), choosing your voltage setting and seeing how much it does or doesn't leak as that voltage is applied. A good test would show, say, 2 Giga-ohms at 500v. A vicious test might involve applying your 1000v, but I wouldn't go that far! If you're lucky, an original might show you a few kilo-ohms of 'leak-proof', at 250v. All too often, it'll show nothing or near enough, and its capacitance can't be measured. The voltage rating of any condenser being tested should be respected, in case the internal insulation is damaged by overdoing things. Many of them allegedly 'self-heal' if perforated by unusually high spikes, but there are limits to how much they will withstand.

If you can be bothered you can create the Lucas coil testing set-up explained in those Workshop Instructions  - but absent HT continuity I wouldn't bother, although it's handy to have a test rig, obviously.

On the bench, a K series should easily make fat sparks that go 'clack' at the flick of a wrist. Turning steadily at about 130rpm it should make almost all its sparks, with big gaps of 5.5mm. A really good one will do a fair bit better than that (I've seen 100% sparks at 100 rpm now and again); a dying one might need several hundred rpm to do anything, or may do nothing. All depends what is actually up with the thing. A low tension fault or assembly error will kill anything stone dead - but a dying HT side will often do a bit, cold, at certain speeds, maybe!

Good luck as you proceed!
Bill

Offline Devlin

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #13 on: 25.04. 2023 16:59 »
Simple one this time , what is the current spark plug to use
Isle of Arran 49 A7 LS

Offline Devlin

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Re: And now for the magneto
« Reply #14 on: 25.04. 2023 18:04 »
Thanks Grolly, I have niether of the fibre insert  insulators but do have the fibre parts that go where your capacitor goes, I dont have the plastic dimple instaed I have a little steel ball bearing under the clip so obviously this has been messed about with I have sent for a complete contact assembly and longer bolt so hopefully that willl sort things out
Devlin
Isle of Arran 49 A7 LS