Author Topic: ethanol fuel  (Read 689 times)

Offline RDfella

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ethanol fuel
« on: 01.01. 2023 13:46 »
Just came across this:-

A 2019 study of ethanol fuels in actual engine conditions at National Cheng Kung University.
The testing was done on an actual engine where valve timing etc could be adjusted for their experiments.

Conclusion:
It is necessary to vary the ignition time for fuel containing higher ethanol composition to overcome the lower flame propagation speed induced by the lower heating value of the fuel.
A higher composition of ethanol in the blended fuel induces lower engine performance and higher emissions of CO and HC, while NO emissions are reduced.

As usual, the do-gooders' 'solutions' to a non-problem actually make things worse.

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Online groily

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #1 on: 01.01. 2023 15:15 »
Also, I think, reduces mpg for same low performance reason RD (making, folk say hereabouts, a mockery of the slight price 'advantage' if you buy 'E10'). Only bought it once ever, on a Sunday, 'cos nothing else at the pump and I was on fumes on an oldie. The carb in question objected by gumming up its float needle within 24 hours. Coincidence maybe, but I don't really believe in them.  Dumped the fuel into the car, cleaned things out, and no repeats since, using the normal-for-now 98 octane with E5 max.

I used to think all this was the usual law of UN-intended consequences. I'm beginning to think nowadays there's maybe malice aforethought involved as well. A politicised dragnet is starting to envelop just about all the things I like doing, which makes me grumpy. 
Bill

Online Colsbeeza

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #2 on: 02.01. 2023 11:16 »
RD, Bill, their conclusion is right about poorer performance with ethanol addition. No doubt the research was driven by global warming concerns. But from the "do-gooders point of view", the ethanol is a renewable resource whereas the remaining 90% or so is fossil fuel - so a theoretical net environmental gain. Well-meaning maybe but with the issues of grain production and poorer performance etc, I wonder if the overall net environmental gain is closer to zero?? :(
Here in Oz, all the advice I have had from mechanical maintenance workshop people is not to use ethanol fuels for the performance and rubber issues whilst such fuel is available. So I use 95 Octane petrol unleaded with no ethanol but preservative added (usually Mercury outboard fuel conditioner from my nearest shop) for everything - ride-on mowers, bikes, several stationary engines for water pumps, cultivator etc, and couldn't be happier. I have tried 98 but no benefit for my low-performance motors and it doesn't keep long. Anything lower than 95 is shite over here. The old Fordson tractor is diesel.
BTW my water pumps are getting a workout for the past month - the mud has turned into a hard crust and dying plants due to no rain.
Col
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Offline sean

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #3 on: 02.01. 2023 15:04 »
RD, Bill, their conclusion is right about poorer performance with ethanol addition. No doubt the research was driven by global warming concerns. But from the "do-gooders point of view", the ethanol is a renewable resource whereas the remaining 90% or so is fossil fuel - so a theoretical net environmental gain. Well-meaning maybe but with the issues of grain production and poorer performance etc, I wonder if the overall net environmental gain is closer to zero?? :(
Here in Oz, all the advice I have had from mechanical maintenance workshop people is not to use ethanol fuels for the performance and rubber issues whilst such fuel is available. So I use 95 Octane petrol unleaded with no ethanol but preservative added (usually Mercury outboard fuel conditioner from my nearest shop) for everything - ride-on mowers, bikes, several stationary engines for water pumps, cultivator etc, and couldn't be happier. I have tried 98 but no benefit for my low-performance motors and it doesn't keep long. Anything lower than 95 is shite over here. The old Fordson tractor is diesel.
BTW my water pumps are getting a workout for the past month - the mud has turned into a hard crust and dying plants due to no rain.
Col
I am the same no ethanol fuel in anything with a carb my a10 gets high test only and I put the first few gallons from the pump into my truck then fill up 5 gallon cans with the high test  which I use for my boat and my bike .

Offline Greybeard

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #4 on: 02.01. 2023 17:27 »
... ethanol is a renewable resource whereas the remaining 90% or so is fossil fuel
That is what's driving the Ethanol agenda.

Didn't Brazil go Ethanol, from sugar, big time? Is that still the case? How did that effect their engines?
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Offline RDfella

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #5 on: 02.01. 2023 17:37 »
Quote
How did that effect their engines?

It's not their engines we need to worry about, but what growing fuel instead of food is doing to world food prices. Driving people in poor countries to starvation.  *rant*
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Offline unclerob

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #6 on: 02.01. 2023 19:24 »
There have been many failed attempts to add ethanol to petrol going back 50 years or more....it was only when they managed to convince politicians it was 'sustainable' that they finally succeeded
Have a look at this.....https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/the-ethanol-scam-172037/

Online groily

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #7 on: 02.01. 2023 19:52 »
Minor collateral damage RD / unclerob, nothing to see there or to worry our pretty li'l heads about.
Same as https://www.nrdc.org/stories/lithium-mining-leaving-chiles-indigenous-communities-high-and-dry-literally
Pardon my scepticism.
Bill

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #8 on: 02.01. 2023 20:15 »
greed lies and cons for the system . nothing for the many living their life. don't forget to UPGRADE , go SMART and get controlled even more. as a spokesman once said of SMART motorways " we can expect casualties " then we find out only half of the SMART cameras are working or of any use, then there is the control station with only a third of the operators on duty. follow the money being robbed by the establishment from the plebs, nothing to see here is there. 

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #9 on: 02.01. 2023 20:30 »
greed lies and cons for the system . nothing for the many living their life. don't forget to UPGRADE , go SMART and get controlled even more. an example of my brother fully qualified electric inspector 3 phase and single , he has a man at the door telling him his electric meter has got to be changed because it has had it's days and is worn out, HAHAHA so our youth tells him his job where he has to pass electric circuits in factory's that are 90 years old and there is nothing wrong with them, man goes away then, they want you to go SMART it keeps the money going round and people in jobs.  as a spokesman once said of SMART motorways " we can expect casualties " then we find out only half of the SMART cameras are working or of any use, then there is the control station with only a third of the operators on duty. follow the money being robbed by the establishment from the plebs, nothing to see here is there.  hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way , i need say no more except REVOLUTION!! ps worty remember how much moisture that E5 petrol sucked in on my back garden in less than 2 minutes.  join the dots of who scratches who's back and follow the briefcases of money, rant over!!

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #10 on: 12.01. 2023 23:48 »
RD, Bill, their conclusion is right about poorer performance with ethanol addition. No doubt the research was driven by global warming concerns. But from the "do-gooders point of view", the ethanol is a renewable resource whereas the remaining 90% or so is fossil fuel - so a theoretical net environmental gain. Well-meaning maybe but with the issues of grain production and poorer performance etc, I wonder if the overall net environmental gain is closer to zero?? :(
Here in Oz, all the advice I have had from mechanical maintenance workshop people is not to use ethanol fuels for the performance and rubber issues whilst such fuel is available. So I use 95 Octane petrol unleaded with no ethanol but preservative added (usually Mercury outboard fuel conditioner from my nearest shop) for everything - ride-on mowers, bikes, several stationary engines for water pumps, cultivator etc, and couldn't be happier. I have tried 98 but no benefit for my low-performance motors and it doesn't keep long. Anything lower than 95 is shite over here. The old Fordson tractor is diesel.
BTW my water pumps are getting a workout for the past month - the mud has turned into a hard crust and dying plants due to no rain.
Col

Col,
You have been "sucked in" by some crafty BS
Running ethanol in your petrol does zero to combat pollution apart from a 2% reduction in CO2 emissions for every 10% ethanol ( because it changes the C to H ratio of the fuel ).
E10 burns a little cooler so in theory should reduce the nitrates/nitrides in the exhaust ( also a green house gas that everyone ignores )
In OZ it was done to bolster the sugar cane industry & the fact that the ex -PM's brother was the majority shareholder & MD of the only company licensed to make fuel ehanol helped the mandate along.
Weather it is grown right now or grew 10,000 years ago the CO2 produced is the same
Then there is the production pollution
Brewing ethanol generates a lot of methane ( bacteria farts ) most of which is flared off in a lazy yellow flame because it is too expensive to capture it so that adds both CO2, Methane & particulate pollution.
From an economic point of view it does reduce the amount of fuel that is imported so that is good for the foreign exchange account.
Gasahol was first used on a large scale during the BS pretend South African embargo because while essential minerals like Molly & cash items like gold & diamonds could be smuggled across the borders then traded freely massive oil tankers & fleets of oil trucks would be very visible so SA went to Gasahol ( e75 - e90) & banned all 2 strokes

Then there is the problem of imported ethanol.
Chopping down forests in third world counries in order to grow cane / beet or any other fermentable crop is a big negative particularly as we desperately need massive re-forrestation to counter global warming .
Both sides of the arguement selectively use data & exagerate grossly in order to advance their positions.
All of the graphs & charts you see showing CO2 production since the industrial revolution totally ignore deforestation and population increases .
The fact that over 40% of all forest have been cut down gets ignored and that includes Australia where all of the dairy farms were originally forest and most of the wheat belt was forest / scrub.
Remember that much of the Arabian & African deserts were created by deforestation , Easter island was a paradise till the natives cut down all the tress and they all starved to death .
The symbosis between forest & grasslands is only just being started to be understood because there was no money for the research because if forest have to be replanted the economic costs to the 5% of the population that control 95% of the money is considered ( by them ) to be too great .
Replant them all and the CO2 problem vanishes.
But those wo control the narative ( the 5% ) want to accumulate even more of the 95% money by pushing the EV solution so we will continue to buy stuff from them in ever increasing volumes .
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #11 on: 13.01. 2023 00:00 »
Didn't Brazil go Ethanol, from sugar, big time? Is that still the case? How did that effect their engines?

South Africa was the first country to go to gasahol (75-95 % ethanol)
Once engines were tuned to burn it they ran fine
Brazil use a lot of air cooled engines and gasahol woks fine in them once they are converted as the new ( read cheaper ) plastics & rubbers used in modern engines adsorb ethanol swell & go soft the same as neoprene does in modern fuel .
They do have the same problem with water adsorbtion but the phase separation we get with e10 is substantially worse then what you get with e 85
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Online berger

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #12 on: 13.01. 2023 00:15 »
trever i agree well said.

Online Black Sheep

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #13 on: 13.01. 2023 07:42 »
Of course you can run engines on ethanol. It's how it is obtained that causes big problems. Even here in the UK, lots of grassland has been turned over to maize growing for ethanol. Only now are they realising that grassland stores CO2 and absorbs heavy rainfall whereas maize fields do nothing much for CO2 absorbtion and suffer extensive soil and water run off in heavy rain.
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Offline muskrat

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Re: ethanol fuel
« Reply #14 on: 13.01. 2023 09:21 »
G'day Fellas.
What about Hemp seed oil for bio fuel. Hemp has hundreds of uses, insulation, building materials, cloths etc, etc.
https://www.cannaus.com.au/national/could-hemp-biofuel-improve-australias-climate-change-outlook/
I even use Hemp seed oil capsuals to help with my joints (pun intended)
Cheers
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