Author Topic: another vee?  (Read 1740 times)

Offline RDfella

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 2203
  • Karma: 15
another vee?
« on: 30.12. 2022 20:12 »
Thought I'd start a new thread - just in case I'm daft enough (at my age) to start a new project  *eek*

Already mentioned in cylinder head? post, so here's an update:
Lot of things to consider before actually deciding to commit funds and 'go for it'. The cylinder head being the first.
After much on-line searching I cannot find, considering suitability and availability, a better option than Enfield. But, like most things to do with engineering, a compromise is required. In this case, my aim is for an engine of around 750 / 800cc - which is where the first conundrum arises: the Enfield 350 has a veteran-era bore / stroke of 70/90. I couldn't accept that - I prefer square or over-square. 78 x 78 gives near 350cc, but a bore of that size would be a mis-match with Enfield's 350 head, insomuch as the head bolts would be perilously close to the CI liner in my alloy barrel - if not colliding with it! So a 500 head (with more appropriate ports & valves) is required.
But wait - a 78mm bore is way under the 500's 84mm bore. Will that mean the combustion chamber overlaps the cylinder - or the inlet valve hits the cylinder (as is the case with BMC 'A' series engines when modified). I won't know until I can get my hands on a 500 head (hopefully soon). And will the head gasket adequately seat on the liner without stressing the flange?
Also, it looks like I'll need to make a gasket to suit, reminding me that was actually the greatest problem I had to solve with my last vee. Try as I might, I couldn't get the fire ring to compress the variety of materials I tried. I figured what was needed was a material that compressed when the fire ring was applied, but not so compressible that it would fail in service. Found a firm (major gasket manufacturer) who confirmed my analysis - but they don't supply raw materials to the public! Soon after my enquiry to that firm. I received a parcel containing supplies of that material - together with a note "you don't know where you got this from"!

So I've been trying to compromise on bore / stroke dimensions. And here piston selection come in (I refuse to make cylinder heads or conrods and seek to avoid making pistons if at all possible). So what's available piston-wise in the 78 - 80mm region? Not a lot, it seems. There's a Ford Mondeo piston @ 83mm, but that'd mean a stroke of 70mm or less. OK, my last vee is 92/75 but that was designed for racing. I now want a more moderate engine - heavier flywheels, nearer square bore / stroke etc. And so ages were spent investigating on-line.
There's a Commando piston avail by Wiseco at 80mm, but at eye-watering price. Same with KTM and others. Then I discovered a Vauxhall piston at 79mm. And at a reasonable price (considering this - if it goes ahead - will be a prototype and could well end up scrapped if major problems arise). And so that is another item 'parked' for now.

But what about conrods?
Again, much on-line searching, with little progress. If I go for 79mm bore (and complimentary stroke of 76.5mm) I will need a conrod of around 6 1/4" to clear the 7 1/2" flywheels I've figured would be a good compromise. Whether that rod has a roller or shell big-end I don't really care, but will need to know before making the crankshaft (which, because I no longer have access to heat-treatment facilities, will need to be pressed-up as opposed to one-piece).
Sadly, very little is available, mainly due to the fact car rods are quite short because they have no flywheel to avoid. The only candidate I have found so far is BSA CB/DB (the shortest of the 3 versions - ZB was the longest and BB the intermediate). A10 / A7 may be another option, but would mean another pair of new Thunder rods (am trying to keep the cost down and prefer steel anyway).
I have one CB rod, but would need another - does anyone have one they're willing to sell? *????*




'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online olev

  • Brisbane, Australia
  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Posts: 637
  • Karma: 5
Re: another vee?
« Reply #1 on: 31.12. 2022 01:31 »
RD,
This ratbag is a member of our club.
You might be interested to check out some of his creations.
He likes offset cranks and big bore motors.

https://www.bmcmotorcycles.com/you-tube-channel-links

cheers

Offline RDfella

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 2203
  • Karma: 15
Re: another vee?
« Reply #2 on: 05.02. 2023 12:30 »
A month later ... and an update (yes, I am daft enough to start another project) *eek*.
Covered all the considerations / possibilities in my opening post, so here's where I am now:

With the likelihood of access to a heat-treatment kiln (after a lot of searching) I can proceed with my preferred one-piece crank. That means split big-end rods. Bore / stroke requirements mean rod c to c length of 6" or just a touch over. My preference is steel rods, but little is available (my favourite VW rods @ 144mm are too short for this engine - car engines have their flywheel at the end, so no need for long rods to get the piston clear of the crank).
Ended up choosing Bonneville T140 rods. Alloy unfortunately, but at least better than BSA ones insomuch as they have steel caps.

Pistons? Bought a pair Kawasaki ATV pistons @ 77mm, but then discovered, because of the volume of the heads I'm using (AJS) I will need domed pistons to reach my preferred 7.5:1 CR. So have just bought a pair of 76mm T140 pistons. At least they'll fit the rods, unlike the Kwaka ones, which were 18mm. Too little material to bore the pistons to the rod's 3/4" yet not enough difference to fit a bush in the rod. At least that's solved now. *smile*

Cylinder heads?  4 valve would be a nightmare on a vee twin, so there's very little to choose from. Enfield ones would have been ideal, but bare head prices are usually above £200 - each. Ouch.
And so I went for AJS, but they need a lot of work. They have a counterbore 'register' where the cast iron cylinder locates. I need a flat surface, so that means welding that up. Also, the head bolt holes would be too close to the liner in my alloy barrel, so need moving further apart. And - we're not finished yet! - the inlet port needs shortening for the rear cylinder and moved sideways considerably for the front cylinder (else the front carb will be stuck in the rear's exhaust).
Have made a start. First pic shows the std recess and bolt holes, 2nd shows my mate Russel's welding and 3rd is after machining but before inlet is modified. Getting there slowly!
The eagle-eyed will notice the pushrod holes are different between the top and other head. That's because the top one is an earlier model - same in all regards except the pushrod arrangement. Suits me to convert the later one to the earlier design.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online muskrat

  • Global Moderator
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 10954
  • Karma: 131
  • Lithgow NSW Oz
    • Shoalhaven Classic Motorcycle Club Inc
Re: another vee?
« Reply #3 on: 05.02. 2023 19:07 »
G'day RD.
Your a brave man mate.
When I re-located the four outside head bolt holes I made threaded plugs, alloy for the head and CI for the barrels. Then drilled half in the plug and half in the head/barrels.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Offline chaterlea25

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 4091
  • Karma: 54
Re: another vee?
« Reply #4 on: 06.02. 2023 22:15 »
Hi RD
Looking forward to seeing progress on the new Vee *smile*

MAP cycle is USA make Steel conrods for Triumphs, BSA's etc
If the budget would stand it?

http://www.mapcycle.com/categories/engine-top-bottom-end/connecting-rods.html


John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline RDfella

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 2203
  • Karma: 15
Re: another vee?
« Reply #5 on: 07.02. 2023 09:18 »
Quote
MAP cycle is USA make Steel conrods for Triumphs, BSA's etc
If the budget would stand it?

Never run to a budget on these sort of jobs - never know where things will end up! Just keep the cost down as you go along without making silly cuts that'll come back to bite you is my motto.
As to those rods - am aware they and a couple of other firms make them, and realise H beam rods have fans in the racing world, but I just don't like them - can't see the logic behind the design.

pics of crank 1, as arrived and 2, current rough-machined state before stress-relieving and then final machining. Turning took 15hrs (steel is quite tough and offset turning means cuts of no more than 1 mm at a time). Despite copious coolant chips came off blue.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online Greybeard

  • Jack of all trades; master of none.
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2011
  • Posts: 9944
  • Karma: 49
Re: another vee?
« Reply #6 on: 07.02. 2023 09:34 »
Will you explain that crankshaft to me please. By the way; lovely finish 👍
Greybeard (Neil)
2023 Gold Star
Supporter of THE DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE https://www.gentlemansride.com

Warwickshire UK


A Distinguished Gentleman Riding his 1955 Plunger Golden Flash

Offline RDfella

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 2203
  • Karma: 15
Re: another vee?
« Reply #7 on: 07.02. 2023 14:24 »
Only roughly machined, I'm afraid. As stated, it needs now to be stress-relieved, before final machining (mainshafts reduced, threaded etc, oil ways drilled and BE ground) then it's off for nitriding. The layout will be similar to my 1,000cc model, although stroke is 80mm instead of 75mm and flywheels will be 1/2" bigger OD. Started with 25+kg of EN40B bar and after turning it's 4.5kg! Bobweights will be mild steel.
Attached pic of the 1,000cc one for reference. The threaded holes are to permit changing of balance factor in situ without dismantling the engine.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online Greybeard

  • Jack of all trades; master of none.
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2011
  • Posts: 9944
  • Karma: 49
Re: another vee?
« Reply #8 on: 07.02. 2023 16:52 »
So does that central journal have side by side big-ends or is the second conrod bushed to the first conrod, or is there a Y shaped conrod with two pistons on it, or is one big end forked around the other?
Greybeard (Neil)
2023 Gold Star
Supporter of THE DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE https://www.gentlemansride.com

Warwickshire UK


A Distinguished Gentleman Riding his 1955 Plunger Golden Flash

Offline RDfella

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 2203
  • Karma: 15
Re: another vee?
« Reply #9 on: 07.02. 2023 18:34 »
Quote
So does that central journal have side by side big-ends or is the second conrod bushed to the first conrod, or is there a Y shaped conrod with two pistons on it, or is one big end forked around the other?

It can be seen from the width of the BE and the oil hole arrangement that it's twin rods, side by side. Actually an advantage for vee twin motorcycles, as it gives a bit more clearance for the rear exhaust and front carb.
In my view a hinged pair of rods are a compromise that should only be considered when other options are inconvenient. The 'hinged' rod will give slight variations in timing and piston position as it's not always perpendicular to the BE. Usually used in radials where multiple rods mount on one BE.  I'm not a fan of forked rods either (yes, I know Merlins had them) because, in my view, the forked rod is weaker. Again, only necessary if it's important that cylinders should be inline.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online Greybeard

  • Jack of all trades; master of none.
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2011
  • Posts: 9944
  • Karma: 49
Re: another vee?
« Reply #10 on: 07.02. 2023 22:47 »
Ah yes, I hadn't studied the other picture very well.
Greybeard (Neil)
2023 Gold Star
Supporter of THE DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE https://www.gentlemansride.com

Warwickshire UK


A Distinguished Gentleman Riding his 1955 Plunger Golden Flash

Online Rex

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2017
  • Posts: 1671
  • Karma: 8
Re: another vee?
« Reply #11 on: 08.02. 2023 09:05 »
Again, only necessary if it's important that cylinders should be inline.

Aesthetically better if the cylinders are in line; Indians and those other American things traditionally had knife-and-fork B/Es which look better than say, those off-set Morini Vee's.

Offline RDfella

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 2203
  • Karma: 15
Re: another vee?
« Reply #12 on: 01.04. 2023 17:30 »
April update: been busy making crankcase patterns. Had forgotten how long all this takes - previous ones were made in my spare time, but this engine is a more concentrated effort.
Crank has had BE ground, just waiting now on delivery of mild steel discs (200mm x 30mm) to create the bobweights. The first pair were 'lost' in the post, but expecting the replacements any day.......
Pic is of drive side crankcase pattern - about half completed. Quite a bit of time is taken up creating draft angles on every part to ensure the pattern will extract from the sand.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline RDfella

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 2203
  • Karma: 15
Re: another vee?
« Reply #13 on: 11.04. 2023 20:16 »
Bit more today - drilling crankshaft to mount flywheels (6 Allen bolts & 2 x dowels each side). Next it's a strip down again to send the crank (minus flywheels) off for nitriding. Flywheels are mild steel and have no need to be hardened. Last pic is the amount of swarf generated from turning crank and flywheels - about 3 x barrow loads *eek*
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline RDfella

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 2203
  • Karma: 15
Re: another vee?
« Reply #14 on: 01.05. 2023 13:32 »
May 1st - well, crank has been nitrided and today I've just finished touching up the crankcase patterns ready to send them off to have a firm near Berger do the casting. Been using Butlers for over 30yrs and have to say I've never had a poor casting.
Time now to do a bit more on the heads and make a start on a cylinder barrel pattern.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.