Author Topic: cyl head choice  (Read 701 times)

Offline RDfella

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cyl head choice
« on: 22.12. 2022 20:22 »
Think I've lost the plot. Currently finishing off repairing tractor doors. Without a brake pan folder it's a PITA making sheet metal channel, but nearly there. Then was thinking, what'll I do after? So yesterday started thinking about making another engine. But at my age would I finish it? It's not just the engine, but would have to obtain a decent frame (with papers) and restore that too. Must be nuts.

Now on my previous attempts I've made all the patterns ready for casting. That said, the cyl heads have been bought items, as my pattern-making doesn't extend that far. Ports tend to be a black art anyway, and I've no wish to make ten models before finding the correct design.
So what heads to use? Presumably it'll be another vee, as there's no point in making something that's designed to vibrate (eg a parallel twin).
So was looking at heads. OHC or OHV? There's + and - for both. An OHC negates the need to design / make cams, followers etc. But head / cyl / crankcase dimensions are critical for chain tension; head gasket thickness cannot be changed thereafter and fitting of barrel shims is likewise ruled out. And the front chain can end up in the crankcase beside the crankshaft - DAMHIK. An OHV is simpler, but as afore-mentioned, requires manufacture of cams, followers etc.  And two valve is obviously de rigueur, as getting two exhausts from the rear cylinder to avoid the front cylinder and carb could be a barrel of fun.

Looking around, seems the most available 350 / 500 alloy heads in OHC are XT500 Yamaha. I used those on my last model, so I'd just be copying something I'd already made. In OHV, Enfield seems the most readily available (at a sensible price) but they don't turn me on - the valve gear looks too agricultural in my eyes. BSA is out of the picture, as they're rare because they're wanted in competition. Ariel? AJS? Dunno.
And do I need another bike? Already have three to ride, with two others that I choose not to (the Firestorm because it's top-heavy, and the DOT - who wants to ride a scrambler in trials trim on the road?).

 Forget to add - now my mate George has gone, so too has my access to cylindrical / surface grinders and the heat oven, the latter meaning making a crankshaft now would mean two-way postage (twice) for strain relief and nitriding. And not forgetting the lack of a pantograph for creating a master cam from 5x pattern.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline Joolstacho

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #1 on: 22.12. 2022 20:54 »
Photos or it didn't happen fella!

Offline RDfella

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #2 on: 22.12. 2022 21:09 »
Quote
Photos or it didn't happen fella!
What of - the tractor / doors?
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online chaterlea25

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #3 on: 22.12. 2022 21:25 »
Hi RD,
I have fancied building a V twin big fin BSA Gold Star but need to win the lottery first or at least build the Goldie (single) replica that I have all the parts for already collected *roll*
I would also like to build a 500cc V twin from a pair of 250 J.A.P engines like a mini KTOR but I have a sidevalve V twin engine to build into a bike (cycle parts yet to be found)

I can dream all day
John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline muskrat

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #4 on: 22.12. 2022 23:28 »
G'day RD.
I'd like to see a BSA V4 A20  *work* *bash* *work* *bash*
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Offline Greybeard

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #5 on: 23.12. 2022 10:10 »
How about going small and building a miniature engine of some sort? A radial aero engine would be cool.
An example:
https://youtu.be/acHAGNUbOxs
Greybeard (Neil)
2023 Gold Star
Supporter of THE DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE https://www.gentlemansride.com

Warwickshire UK


A Distinguished Gentleman Riding his 1955 Plunger Golden Flash

Online Rex

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #6 on: 23.12. 2022 11:09 »
I was always impressed by one of Millyard's early creations, a Honda C50 based V-twin.
I wouldn't put it in a bike but on a plinth of polished wood as a desk ornament. ;)

Online berger

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #7 on: 23.12. 2022 11:13 »
building the berglar bike has given me enough grief getting parts to fit and then finding out it upsets another part, and i have been at it for ages now. i must get it sorted for this summer. when people start making patterns and casting boxes and doing the whole thing like my dad did with his small boat engines you have to have a very dedicated mindset and plenty of time. i only have the yonda and betsy beezer to look after and i think 3 bikes is enough for me . i can only ride one at a time and winter lay ups in this country doesn't do anything any good, even lawn mowers *pull hair out* heated storage or bring them all in the house is much better. betsy is normally inside by now my missus demands it, but i built my engine building breakfast bar where she rests over winter. that reminds me no pub today the pistons are going on the berglar build engine . *loveit*

Offline RDfella

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #8 on: 23.12. 2022 12:44 »
Can't get excited about small stuff. If in a real bike, one would soon get tired of riding it. Bit like the ML James I had (actually about 3 of them at one time). Down to 2nd gear going uphill or with a head wind. Horrible.
As for models - used to build the odd boat and aeroplane (not too much success flying the latter!) but haven't the patience to work with tiny stuff. Got loads of model engines anyway, including a rotary and a couple of the rare CI Specials. Got a real curio as well, an engine designed, I was told by the factory, to power weather balloons.
A pic of the generator attached, together with a few early pics for Jools of the last vee twin I built. Plenty of other pics on this forum, together with links to a couple of vids - plus threads on the 3 x starters I made for my bikes.

Also, as per my reply to Jools, pics of the door repair I referred to in my opening sentence.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online KiwiGF

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #9 on: 23.12. 2022 20:48 »
With your level of skills…..maybe instead tool up to cast some ally barrels for A10s  *smiley4*

On the heads side, I had a honda GB500 for a while and found out they have a fundamental issue causing the cam to seize in the head, which is fixable with very good skills but must mean there are some buggered heads out there which people did not bother to fix. The same issue occurs on other bikes fitted with that sort of “RFVC”  engine (radial four valve chamber) xl500 etc.

There might also be some B44 heads out there with broken fins? (I just fitted a NOS head to my B44 I’m sure others have done the same).

Out of left field…..can a car engine head be chopped to make a liquid cooled head? Plenty of warped diesel heads out there…..

Just some thoughts!

New Zealand

1956 A10 Golden Flash  (1st finished project)
1949 B31 rigid “400cc”  (2nd finished project)
1968 B44 Victor Special (3rd finished project)
2001 GL1800 Goldwing, well, the wife likes it
2009 KTM 990 Adventure, cos it’s 100% nuts

Offline Joolstacho

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #10 on: 23.12. 2022 22:04 »
Great work RDfella. Door fab looks excellent.
My tractor doesn't require doors...

Online KiwiGF

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #11 on: 23.12. 2022 23:47 »
Great work RDfella. Door fab looks excellent.
My tractor doesn't require doors...


Nor does mine…..(it’s still being a workhorse, 2.3m mower)

Might be off topic 😖

New Zealand

1956 A10 Golden Flash  (1st finished project)
1949 B31 rigid “400cc”  (2nd finished project)
1968 B44 Victor Special (3rd finished project)
2001 GL1800 Goldwing, well, the wife likes it
2009 KTM 990 Adventure, cos it’s 100% nuts

Online Colsbeeza

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #12 on: 24.12. 2022 08:21 »
Jools,
Your Fordson looks like it might need some Plastic and Rubber Restorer - seems topical at the moment. *bright idea*
                https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=17720.0;topicseen
Col
1961 Golden Flash
Australia

Offline Joolstacho

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #13 on: 24.12. 2022 08:59 »
Haha Col, well, if there were such a thing as a 'reverse bushfire' that'd probably do it!

Offline RDfella

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Re: cyl head choice
« Reply #14 on: 25.12. 2022 16:56 »
Update.
Kiwi mentioned making barrels for A10. Could do, but....  Pattern making and core boxes would take about a week. Dunno what casting costs are these days as I've not had any done for 3 or 4 yrs, but I'd guess around £100. Then there's postage, machining, purchase 2 x CI liners, fitting same & boring / honing to size. Not sure about cam followers - might mean a bronze insert (have forgotten how they fit). Total cost probably north of £400. And what's the demand with a reducing number of bikes / mileage? 10? 100? Last of all, I no longer run my business, so there'd be no insurance against a claim that my cylinder caused a rider to crash etc. So not overly interested.

As for cylinder heads: the engines I've made so far do not represent a make - my first was going to be a vee twin B31, but when I discovered there was insufficient room for 4 x BSA cams, I decided to go for a 'my engine using B31 heads & barrels'. The second one was never intended to be a vee twin anything. It was intended as a race engine and it just happened that Yam XT heads offered the best solution.

I know from experience gained thus far that, because I have no intention of designing my own heads, a suitable head sets a lot of parameters for the other parts. So head choice comes first.
Over the last few days I've examined several possibilities. On the OHC front, only Yam XT really fits the bill but, as mentioned previously, that would mean making a copy of what I already have. A few minor upgrades, but otherwise the same. So no point.
With OHV, BSA's are either not suitable or too expensive. AJS / Matchless not really suitable (usually their inlet port is too far the the right, meaning a dog-leg manifold to get the front cyl carb away from the rear cyl exhaust). Also, there's an inconvenient recess where the barrel sits.
All that really appears suitable is Enfield though, as previously stated, I'm not impressed by their crude rocker arrangement. That said, I'm pursuing the purchase of a Bullet head for analysis before proceeding further.
On a sadder note, I had been making enquiries about my late friend George's machinery, seeing as how I used to rely on some of his gear (eg pantograph, cylindrical grinder, heat oven etc). Just learn from a mutual friend that George's dopey sons (believe me, they are seriously weird) have 'disposed' of it all. Apparently for no consideration!

 PS - And that was a fair bit of gear. 3 X large pantographs (one 3 axis), 2 x surface grinders (one weighed 5 tons or more) a large slotter (again, several tons) a Russian metric lathe - several tons again, cylindrical grinder, spark erosion machine, Beaver and other mills, heat treatment oven etc etc
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.