Author Topic: The Joy of the Neglected Modern  (Read 982 times)

Online groily

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The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« on: 20.11. 2022 08:07 »
Used too rarely, washed less, and a humid climate  . . . second one of these to rot to nothing in under 35K km  . . . at a few hundred €€ a shot. Next one is stainless along with a third set of (this time) ss downpipes  . . . but have to get a couple of broken studs out of cyl head first - Again 'again'. Had already replaced the original - 3 of 8 broken - M8 bolts with silly undersize 12mm heads with studs and brass 'manifold' nuts, so can't say I haven't tried. Could even be an engine out job this time for want of access.

When I look at some parts on my oldies that have lasted 60+ years, including a silencer from Messrs Burgess from 1953  . . .
Bill

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #1 on: 20.11. 2022 08:44 »
Yep!....Most unreliable bikes I've ever had?.....BMW

Online groily

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #2 on: 20.11. 2022 09:29 »
Yep!....Most unreliable bikes I've ever had?.....BMW
I was OK with the Ks CB (as in 100k miles in 3 years, just one alternator oil seal and one clutch plate as a consequence of the leak, no other bits at all) but my daily 90mile work-and-back hammering of an R100RS with 4 valve Krauser heads  killed clutches in nano-seconds, as well as causing a cam lobe to disintegrate. Taught me not to be seduced by go-faster goodies, that did.
I remember neither of the beemers particularly fondly, but I appreciated the K100RS (8 valve version back then) for doing most things 'ok', if none very well bar its reliability.
The one modern I recall very happily was a GSX 1100 Suzi (pre-oil-cooled version) .  . . until it was pinched. That's London street parking for you.
The XJR I tolerate because of the comfort and the torque, even if it's undergeared / needs a 6th. When looking for something 2nd hand, anything, to replace it a year or two back, I drew a blank frankly. Can't fit on (or climb onto) most modern stuff despite their humungous dimensions, don't want 150bhp, and above all want to be able to fix at least some of  it myself  . . . some hope!
I shall now trundle off to the local bakery at 35mph on my LE Velocette!
Bill

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #3 on: 20.11. 2022 11:30 »
Would that be the LE that your late friend had?

Online berger

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #4 on: 20.11. 2022 11:32 »
i bought urma yonda and she was stood for 12 years and had water in the left fork leg. getting her something like was lots of work. rear wheel spindle solid in the inner races was one of many problems. as for the exhaust i kept trying the nuts on the head studs after giving them loads of heat on and of off for days. i knew they were going to snap just like many other bolts on the bike did. i didn't want to wrap the pipes or end up taking the head off but two out of the four had little chrome left because it was left on the side stand. good job i didn't want to get her back to showroom condition and just ride her instead of looking at her.

Online groily

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #5 on: 20.11. 2022 13:10 »
Would that be the LE that your late friend had?
You have a good memory Rex  . . . I think you'd have seen him on it when you were over  - but in fact, 'tis mine. (I like them  . . . I know  . . .)
Ken couldn't ride his Venom, what with suffering from mesothelioma, so he used that for the day. His last 'day out' on 2 wheels in fact, so I was pleased to have had it available for him and even more pleased when he said he actually enjoyed it! An acquired taste, most definitely - but ingenious little things and always a conversation piece over here, where there are very few.
Bill

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #6 on: 20.11. 2022 13:47 »
i knew they were going to snap just like many other bolts on the bike did.
I guess they did (snap) then bergs?!

Seriously, I am constantly amazed that they used bolts on all these sorts of machines. Guaranteed to get stuck. I suppose they thought if they only put a 12mm hex on, then owners would be less likely to sheer them getting things apart - but they round so easily with shallow heads that it's not a great compromise. Stuck is stuck, rounded off or snapped.
I hoped swapping for bespoke M8 studs and made-to-measure brass nuts of a broader AF size would avoid trouble next time - but the 8th of the 8 broke all the same, just when I was starting to be pleased with myself!
Haven't revisited this morning - just soaked in acetone / ATF mix  . . . but I hold out small hope of getting it out with motor in situ owing to lack of access. Have to be careful with heat, too, given the position. But there again, with glass half full, it may be a Maybe!

That said, I - probably -  need to consult the book about how hard it is to hoick the motor - and think whether I've still got the strength to lift the thing.  Pre-unit 650s I can still lift in and out OK - but twice the size, with transmission 'n all  . . .  jury's out on that.

Luckily, I don't really care if it's off the road for a bit. Lack of use is a contributory factor to the corrosion, but even though it would often be so easy just to press the tit and go, it's a dull old way to get about on roads with universal low speed limits & littered with cameras, road humps,  and the rest of it. As we all know. And about to get worse as more and more places impose 'green' requirements for pre-registering (no doubt for a fee) any vehicle intending to go into certain areas. (As an example, the city of Caen - hardly a big metropolis, just a regional town really - is shortly doing just that - and the affected area will extend right out to the port of Ouistreham, for those who use it. Couldn't make it up.)
Bill

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #7 on: 20.11. 2022 14:26 »
bill i tried tightening then loosening most of the bolts that snapped they are not good old british steel,  they are studs in the head for the exhaust and nuts so after much trying i left them alone because i knew what the outcome would be i could feel it in my water, and no way was i taking the head off!! *pull hair out*

Online groily

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #8 on: 12.12. 2022 09:15 »
Well Bergs, got it back together with very shiny new ss bits underneath, and all those graphite joints you need for the ins and outs, ss clips etc - and €303 poorer for the pleasure of replacing the one bit you can't actually see.
But it's very not great on the front of the cyl head. Didn't have to hoick it off or the motor out thank gawd (although I should have, no doubt about that). Instead, I made deep nuts with turned-to-round inboard sections to pass through enlarged holes in two of the flanges that retain the downpipes (they cleaned up luckily).  After managing to get some extra thread onto several shortened studs by using a die fixed into a socket with a universal joint on an extension bar to get onto the things. Jeez, fiddly game to play. Darn lucky there was still a thread or two exposed to get the die on centrally, or we'd be in seriously drunken territory, but all studs have 5 or 6 turns minimum, which ought to just about do. It's the bodge to end all bodges but if anything's blowing it's very marginal, so it will just have to do. Nightmare. (And the cam cover still weeps of course.)

Next nightmare coming up apparently, as a local mate who knows about japanese fours (he's much younger than most of us!) pointed out some signs of perishing on the induction side where the rubber connectors go from carbs to head. I'm told (no idea) that's another total bugga as the M6 allen head screws that hold things on will also break / go round if you look at them. And then - I'm told, again I have no idea - that the cam chain tensioner bolt can be another bugga if the cyl head has to come off to extract some of the guaranteed busted M6 shanks. That's after several hours, natch, taking other things off to get to the bits that need to be taken off.

I wouldn't mind if I actually LIKED working on modern machines, but to me, there's just no pleasure in playing with them at all.
Might be time to p ex it for something a bit newer! It's done fewer miles than my A did in less time, and far fewer than one or two other oldies which respond to treatment rather better. I think I was born about 50 years too late! Only semi-positive was that aforementioned younger mate reckons that XJRs are quite sought after here in any condition - and there's me thinking it's basically scrap value at 22 years old and 45000 miles, half in my hands.
Bill

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #9 on: 06.01. 2023 18:30 »
Might be time to p ex my XJR for something a bit newer! It's done fewer miles than my A did in less time, and far fewer than one or two other oldies which respond to treatment rather better. I think I was born about 50 years too late!

New Year. Getting older. Thoughts turning  . . . to 'stuff'.
Not being truly happy with the bodged cyl head fasteners aforementioned after getting my XJR to hang together again, my memsahib (- get this!) suggests I ought to think about summat a bit newer in the 'modern' department.

Well now  . . . that's not a suggestion to ignore, obviously.

But  . . . a year or two back I was tempted by a v low mileage good-as-new Guzzi, called a Norje or some such. I would have bought it, except for the minor fact I couldn't sit on it and change gear at the same time owing to the modern predilection on non-sporty bikes for absurdly low seat heights. (Which also risk causing sterility, but that's another thing, and post-prostate surgery, I'm not too bothered about THAT any more. At least it 'works' (sort of)).

Now, in light of my dimensions (1,98m & 115kg or 6'5" and 18 stone plus), I can't even think of modern Oilfields or the Beesa, even if I wanted one or felt like paying 'new bike' money. I don't want a Triumph, or an H-D..
I need a seat parallel to the ground, with footrests disposed close to where they are on classic Brit iron in relation to hips. Nothing maniacally rear-set, and above all not FF. I don't want a high tail I can't get a leg over. I don't need 100+ horses either - I bought the XJR because it fitted me semi-OK (with some extra foam up the seat added by me). I don't need 4 cylinders. Two in a V or flat, even parallel, would be fine. But I do want mid-range torque and 80mph all day cruising. Accessories and ooh-la-la junk don't interest me, nor does top speed on paper at insane rpm - just a torquey engine, 5 gears probably, and OK brakes- those are the basic requirements. With some faint hope that parts might be available for a bit.

So  . . . . what the heck is there, built in the last 15-odd years, conceived for a big bloke with no interest in bells and whistles?? The more I look in to it, the more ignorant I feel. Shall I end up with one of the 1200cc-ish Beemer twins and relive the 1980s with mod cons? Will I find there is a man in Japan of more than average height involved in the design of modern machines? I despair of the Italians frankly, but then they are not very big, so can't be blamed. Will I have to look back further and find a good '80s or '90s bike that fits??

What should a man do, if determined not to spurn a positive thought from the local management  ? ? ? ?
Bill

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #10 on: 06.01. 2023 19:08 »
Ah, if you built you own, made to measure, it would be 'new'. You'd like my M21 with a near 800cc vee ....  *smile*
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online KiwiGF

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #11 on: 06.01. 2023 22:32 »
Might be time to p ex my XJR for something a bit newer! It's done fewer miles than my A did in less time, and far fewer than one or two other oldies which respond to treatment rather better. I think I was born about 50 years too late!

New Year. Getting older. Thoughts turning  . . . to 'stuff'.
Not being truly happy with the bodged cyl head fasteners aforementioned after getting my XJR to hang together again, my memsahib (- get this!) suggests I ought to think about summat a bit newer in the 'modern' department.

Well now  . . . that's not a suggestion to ignore, obviously.

But  . . . a year or two back I was tempted by a v low mileage good-as-new Guzzi, called a Norje or some such. I would have bought it, except for the minor fact I couldn't sit on it and change gear at the same time owing to the modern predilection on non-sporty bikes for absurdly low seat heights. (Which also risk causing sterility, but that's another thing, and post-prostate surgery, I'm not too bothered about THAT any more. At least it 'works' (sort of)).

Now, in light of my dimensions (1,98m & 115kg or 6'5" and 18 stone plus), I can't even think of modern Oilfields or the Beesa, even if I wanted one or felt like paying 'new bike' money. I don't want a Triumph, or an H-D..
I need a seat parallel to the ground, with footrests disposed close to where they are on classic Brit iron in relation to hips. Nothing maniacally rear-set, and above all not FF. I don't want a high tail I can't get a leg over. I don't need 100+ horses either - I bought the XJR because it fitted me semi-OK (with some extra foam up the seat added by me). I don't need 4 cylinders. Two in a V or flat, even parallel, would be fine. But I do want mid-range torque and 80mph all day cruising. Accessories and ooh-la-la junk don't interest me, nor does top speed on paper at insane rpm - just a torquey engine, 5 gears probably, and OK brakes- those are the basic requirements. With some faint hope that parts might be available for a bit.

So  . . . . what the heck is there, built in the last 15-odd years, conceived for a big bloke with no interest in bells and whistles?? The more I look in to it, the more ignorant I feel. Shall I end up with one of the 1200cc-ish Beemer twins and relive the 1980s with mod cons? Will I find there is a man in Japan of more than average height involved in the design of modern machines? I despair of the Italians frankly, but then they are not very big, so can't be blamed. Will I have to look back further and find a good '80s or '90s bike that fits??

What should a man do, if determined not to spurn a positive thought from the local management  ? ? ? ?

Modern style “adventure” bikes are suited to taller riders, you can put road tyres on them unless you feel like a bit of green laning 😆

My next modern will have a good ABS system, preferably “cornering ABS”, and if (say) over 80hp traction control as well. I don’t like the idea of being reliant on a dealer for any electronic issues that occur, but I do like the idea of avoiding a crash caused by my advancing years increasing the chance of “rider error”.

I might be being overly optimistic but the modern “rider aids” might prolong my riding career 😀
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Offline Catz

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #12 on: 07.01. 2023 08:51 »
The XJR cylinder head manifold bolts and collector box often get neglected, same thing as the FJ. Replace the manifold bolts with stainless. The collector needs to be looked after or the inevitable happens. But overall the XJR is one of the best old school bikes out there, i'd persevere with it. Loads of smooth power, unbreakable if looked after, clock up the mileage like nothing else, early models still on carbs, low enough to swing you legs over without effort, one of the best in my opinion. Here's my 1200 with a few mods. Built it from parts off Ebay and my old FJ, not much FJ left on it now though.
Crewe, Cheshire, England 1960 A10

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #13 on: 07.01. 2023 10:15 »
The XJR cylinder head manifold bolts and collector box often get neglected, same thing as the FJ. Replace the manifold bolts with stainless. The collector needs to be looked after or the inevitable happens. But overall the XJR is one of the best old school bikes out there, i'd persevere with it. Loads of smooth power, unbreakable if looked after, clock up the mileage like nothing else, early models still on carbs, low enough to swing you legs over without effort, one of the best in my opinion. Here's my 1200 with a few mods. Built it from parts off Ebay and my old FJ, not much FJ left on it now though.

Don't disagree with any of that Catz - and thanks for your wisdom - as they're pretty bullet-proof retro machines that do some things quite well. The weight is too high up though and there is a lot of it, and there's the need for a 6th gear or slightly higher ratios from 3rd to 5th. The finish on all aluminium parts is execrable however, all Yams seem to suffer much the same. And not recoverable by spit and polish alone.
I've found mine sensitive to tyre combinations and pressures and have settled on Pirelli Angels recently. Tendency to 'fall-in' at manoeuvring speeds due to weight, and to understeer on fast bends on some tyres. But overall, it's been OK as a modern-ish heavyweight, and mechanically very reliable. A hydraulic seal here and there,  but otherwise just the usual stuff - oils, filters, chain set (endless and 'off with the swing-arm' in my case as it's actually an easy job with taper rollers), brake pads etc.

BUT, to the main thrust here,  how often is yer average guy going to remove the exhaust system and /or bank of carbs just to keep the fasteners running free or take off the collector box to keep the clamps clean and try to keep rust starting from within at bay? Neither job is easy and every time one goes on an expedition to investigate one thing, others emerge! Sleeping Dogs and all that.
The mild steel collector boxes have a life of ten years I reckon, I replaced the first one in 2010 or 11  (see pic), the second one just a few weeks back but with stainless after-market - cheaper in fact than the factory part, and might not corrode as badly. Both the mild steel ones look identically dead after similar mileages - about 35K km in each case.
I wouldn't mind so much if STUDS wouldn't come out - don't want them to do we? But what I just hate is steel set-screws and bolts and allen screws into ali in places where neglect is almost a given. My problem has been 'snapped or rounded-head bolts despite best efforts' leaving stubs that are buggas to get out, and a couple I haven't managed. No room without major dismantle. First time round I used studs and made brass deep nuts for the fasteners I could get at and out (like on a car manifold basically). The original bits (replaced, it should be said) that came out OK 1st time round didn't survive the 2nd round despite loads of copper grease etc, but I have managed with a lot of messing about as mentioned above to deal with the offending remnants with some very awkward one-offery, and the exhaust side is holding up for now ( a couple of hundred miles only so far though).
I haven't had a chance to look into the inlet side rubbers yet  . . . it's not yet doing any funnies when running (I know what to expect though, from friends' FJs etc etc), and she ticks over correctly. Just a question of time though.
So  . . . I will persevere a bit more as you suggest, I might enlist a spare pair of hands if the motor has to come out (when the frame could have a bit of a touch-up in rusty areas where the paint hasn't done too well either despite being under half the age of a lot of unrestored Brit iron). But shifting it through the trade after a decent-ish clean is probably a better option, unless a mate specifically wants a bargain price lowish mileage one with some work to do, and has the savvy to do it. It needs someone to love it a bit more than I have, to be honest, and there are people who really do like these things, I'm told by people younger than me.

Some of the adventure-styled beasts might be a good option KiwiGF, thanks for that.
And making one would be wonderful RD - just need your ultra-skill levels instead my much more basic ones!!
Bill

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Re: The Joy of the Neglected Modern
« Reply #14 on: 07.01. 2023 11:28 »
I know what you mean about the handling. I've been using Bridgestone Battlax BT023 tyres for a few years now and find them the best.
I've also messed about with 3 types of forks, the original XJR forks i couldn't get on with so put them on my XS1100 and now my CX500, and i tried some FJ 3CV forks which i thought were great and about 2cm over in length compared to the XJR and the bike handled brilliantly. Then someone mentioned FZR1000RU USD's which i'm running with now, though they are about 2cm shorter than the XJR which are great through the twisties and haven't taken them off yet to go back to the FJ's but might one day. The FJ's are not a straight swap but with some XJ600 post Diversion 2010 top yokes can be used with any 22mm 'bars instead of the FJ clip-on affairs.
Have you had a look over on the XJROC forum for any advice or help? http://www.yamahaxjrownersclub.com/phpBB3/index.php?sid=1ebe09b853c9fe48bc14fa9f3ba915ae
Crewe, Cheshire, England 1960 A10