Author Topic: primary Chain  (Read 1868 times)

Offline Slymo

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primary Chain
« on: 20.03. 2022 00:43 »
Heard a slightly distressing if brief grawnch the other day as I came of the motorway on my 58SR. I immediately thought of the posts on the clutch which I have remade and riveted on. Pulled the cover off today to discover all is well with the clutch but the Reynolds 5/16x1/2" primary chain is starting to collapse rollers. It was brand new in 2018 when I got the bike on the road so has probably done somewhere between 8-10,000 miles. I use the bike quite a lot. There are no witness marks on the primary sprocket or the clutch basket that would suggest misalignment and whilst I might have been a bit slack topping up the ATF in the chain case there was some in there and the chain was by no means dry. I also have regularly checked that the chain is always slightly slack at the tightest point as for the first year of the bikes use it would loosen regularly. This I put down to bedding in to the new primary sprocket and general bedding in. It has been very consistent for the last couple of years.
Questions are: 1. Is Reynolds chain still what it was? Is 8-10k miles all I should expect from a simplex primary chain. 3. Is there a better chain available in New Zealand for the purpose and 4. Who supplies it and the required half link?
S.
NZ

Offline BagONails

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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #1 on: 20.03. 2022 02:20 »
Hi Sly, sorry to hear your woes.
I can't say I have years of experience with these models and I am sure lots of guys will come on after me to add their wisdom but from other experience I do have with mechanical drives and chains in particular I'll give you my opinion for what its worth so here goes:
1) I think you meant 'Renold' and yes they are still going as an international company of some repute. I would have no problem fitting their product on my bike. (Reynolds were the old Ti company that is also still out there I believe, famous for race winning double butted cycle tube sets such as Reynolds 531 and probably supplied BSA in their day)

2) Obviously a lot depends on how you drive it but a properly set up, well lubricated chain running in a closed environment such as our primary drives should be capable of at least three times the mileage you have done on yours I would expect.

3 & 4) There really shouldn't be any great difference between any of the well known chain suppliers. I fitted a Regina branded chain recently from Feked in UK which comes with the joining link but only because that was the one they were selling! (Regina are Italian so it makes my bike go faster of course)

The technology is very mature and I would be very surprised if there was a quality issue with the chain at the root of your problem (not impossible however).

I my view nothing wears a new chain out quicker than fitting it to old worn sprockets. It is always best to fit new chain and sprockets together. If this proves uneconomic then the next best thing is to change the chain way before it is worn out and in this way you will prolong the life of the sprockets. Chain is cheap, sprockets not so much.

If the alignment is OK (and mine wasn't!) then the question becomes one of lubrication and tension. There are those who say primary drives can be run without oil. My view is lube makes everything better! Tension remains as the most likely problem then and for my money I would always err on the side of running slack rather than running too tight.
There should be at least 1/2" of up and down movement in the middle of the top run at the tightest point.  Another possibility is that the gearbox moved after you set the tension. What happens is the final drive chain will pull the gearbox back under load which over tensions the primary unless the adjuster is locked off with firm pressure against the gearbox to prevent it doing so. This may have occurred a few times if you were unaware and you made a number of readjustments during 'bedding in'?

Maybe then a combination of lowish oil level, chain a bit too tight after initial set up and running on a clutch basket that was possibly more worn out than you thought it was when you fitted the new chain has hastened its end. In addition if there is severe runout on either the crank sprocket and/or the clutch basket then the chain will suffer.  You mentioned setting the tension at the tightest point which is correct but how much did the tension vary between tight and slack?

All you can do really is check everything is running within limits, replace all the worn out parts and this may now include your new crankshaft sprocket too unfortunately and start again.  *sad2*
Ian
59 GF A10
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Online Rex

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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #2 on: 20.03. 2022 08:34 »
Someone's views from another forum a while back is that rather like modern  stuff boxed as "Lucas", modern "Renolds" chains have no connection with the old Renolds firm and are just some far Eastern pikers reusing an old trade name.
No idea if it's true or not, but the original Renolds was good stuff and lasted well even in less-than-ideal conditions.

Online berger

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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #3 on: 20.03. 2022 12:19 »
i now have the opinion that everything is made in china or some other far off place and re packaged. over the years i have found this to be true when seeing a british sticker or print on bpxes. my other opinion is that everything you buy present day LOOKS like it will do a job but is not capable of doing the job.

Offline bikerbob

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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #4 on: 20.03. 2022 15:46 »
When buying a chain as well as getting the correct size you should also check the thickness of the links as I know for a fact that Renolds years ago used to make the same size chain but different qualities the lower quality had thinner links and was designed for general machine use whereas as the better quality had much thicker links and this is what was used for motorcycles.
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Offline Black Sheep

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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #5 on: 21.03. 2022 06:49 »
If you run a primary chain dry it will fail. Voice of experience. A single trip Edinburgh to Bristol had a chaincase full of broken rollers. More recently I had a 560 mile trip on the Velo, bit of a rush and hadn't checked the primary chaincase oil level, another chain utterly ruined. It's all down to correct lubrication. My A7 is coming up to 60,000 miles, still on its original primary chain. A bike that doesn't leak!
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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #6 on: 21.03. 2022 08:28 »
Ditto Black Sheep. 41 years on my A7 duplex primary chain. Just ordered a new one so that will see me out.
Cheers
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Online KiwiGF

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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #7 on: 21.03. 2022 08:52 »
Hi Slymo, in my experience chain quality is a lottery, my A10 had a draganfy chain unbranded and pretty thin links but was fine at 8000 miles when I got a belt drive.

My german b31 chain disintegrated after 2000 miles and it turned out to have “split” rollers only meant for low speed use. I didn’t know there was such a thing as split rollers 🤬 see pics  *problem*
The japanese chain sold by the meter I replaced it with from local rural engineering supplies shop (think massey ferguson and john deere and farming machinery parts etc) lasted well ($70) but I eventually bought a belt drive for that bike as well.



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Offline rocker21

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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #8 on: 21.03. 2022 11:17 »
i to went for a bob newby belt drive and clutch, much better and the clutch works!!! i can find neutral at the traffic lights. 
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Offline RDfella

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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #9 on: 21.03. 2022 12:52 »
Belt drive is certainly the answer. As Kiwi says, chain these days - as with many spares we buy - is a lottery. Add to that the daft design of running a dry clutch in an oil bath to lubricate the chain and you can't win. Either stuck or slipping clutch versus chain damage (for some - apart from my Dot which requires oil for the cork clutch, haven't put oil in a primary case since early 70's and no, I don't have a pile of broken or degraded chains). Although I will have to change my habit regarding my GF, as it now has a gear in the primary to lubricate. Not looking forward to the clutch issues that will ensue. BSA suggested engine oil in the primary - others have sworn by SAE20. Villiers recommended 140. On several bikes (Velocette, Triton etc) I had to stop putting oil in their primaries because I was getting fed up with taking the cover off (Velocette is a real gem) to wash the plates in petrol as often as every other day. Failure to do so meant no start because of clutch slip. Then there was the failure to find neutral............ And on race bikes the chain is in the air anyway.
 
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Online Rex

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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #10 on: 21.03. 2022 16:33 »
Blimey, I've ridden bikes for decades and all I've had to put up with is the occasional clonking into gear and drips from the primary. The last primary chain I renewed was for the Star Twin and that only through old age and long use.
I must be very lucky..

Offline Greybeard

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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #11 on: 21.03. 2022 19:36 »
.. My A7 is coming up to 60,000 miles, still on its original primary chain. A bike that doesn't leak!
Did you have your fingers crossed when you wrote that? 😉
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Offline Slymo

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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #12 on: 22.03. 2022 01:47 »
No not putting on a belt drive as I like to keep the machine original. I've gone for another Renolds chain as I had trouble sourcing any other. Bought one online from Baxter's in the end which was a comedy of errors in that I assumed without evidence that Baxter's was an English outfit and had used my ip in order to convert their prices into NZD. This gave them a price including postage that was substantially below that of Renolds in Rosebank Road (about five miles away). Of course when the invoice arrives I spot that they are in the States and the price is in USD. Never mind still $20 cheaper than the local outfit even if I have to wait until the delivery. I will definitely look with the time I have to improving the oil tightness of the chain case as I can only assume that whatever ATF was in there wasn't sufficient.
NZ

Offline Colsbeeza

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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #13 on: 22.03. 2022 04:59 »
Slymo,
I finally have a leakproof chaincase. I use a heavy grease on the Inner case and Hylomar on the outer, so that the gasket comes away with the outer when it is removed next time. I also remove the spacer washer and bolt at the rear of the inner to be sure that the cases pull together evenly, then replace the washer and bolt when screws are all tight. I have a 3mm thick felt washer behind the clutch centre which has been very successful. The clutch was slipping this morning, so the seal will get a further test soon. Fairly sure I used lighter springs than standard. I've been using 10W-40 motorcycle oil with no friction additives.
Col
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Offline Black Sheep

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Re: primary Chain
« Reply #14 on: 22.03. 2022 06:42 »
I use tractor universal 10W-30 in both primary chaincase and forks. Being universal, it's both an engine oil and a hydraulic oil and used for oil immersed brakes (strange world tractors!) so no unwanted friction additives. And it's cheap.
Not so keen on belt drive as the primary drive can run hot and the oil keeps the chain temperature down, not to mention reducing friction-induced heat build up. The other thing is that any deviation from standard makes future repair problematical.
2 twins, 2 singles, lots of sheep