Author Topic: Tools, spanners, whitworth  (Read 972 times)

Offline Big_Ben

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Tools, spanners, whitworth
« on: 11.03. 2022 20:02 »
Also... tools.

99% of my tool kit are reasonable quality metric.

I've purchased a set of Sealey Premier 1/2" whitworth sockets to go with one of my existing metric sets.

7/32" and a 3/16" alen keys and a few whitworth C spanners (1/8"W, 5/16"W, 3/8"W and a 1/2"W).

Even just getting the foot rest, kick lever and gear lever off I discovered I was missing some sizes, OR the fixings were not standard. Both of these are of course quite likely.

Am I missing specific whitworth sizes and is it likely that I'll also need an AF spanner set?

If I need something else, please tell me.

I'm no originality fetishist, but I like the idea of the fixings being where possible what they should be so I'll be checking the spec of things as I go along and replacing them where necessary.

Cheers

Poppy


1949 A7 Bitsa this, bitsa that!
1979 BMW R80/7 with extensive upgrades...
1983 Moto Morini 3 1/2 Sport

Offline muskrat

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #1 on: 11.03. 2022 21:11 »
G'day Poppy
Your kickstart quadrant looks OK and is the "flat top" type. Your pinion looks very worn. I'd replace that and the bush it runs on. If you can't find a flat top pinion you will need to change both pinion and quadrant to "pointy top".
As for tools, almost all fasteners and larger "hex's" will be Whitworth. 1/8, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8 are a must in socket and combination spanner. There will be the odd larger 7/16, 1/2 and larger. A trap for young players is they can be labeled W or BS so a 1/4 W is same as 5/16 BS.
Here is a handy spanner chart http://classicmechanic.blogspot.com/2011/06/mm-af-bsw-bsf-spanner-conversion-chart.html
Nut and bolt chart for part numbers here https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=9222.0
Cheers
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Offline Big_Ben

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #2 on: 11.03. 2022 21:22 »
Apologies for dumb questions, but when you say a whitworth tap, a) what size? 1/4"? Secondly, are there various thread pitches or a 1/4" whitworth will always have the same pitch?

Thank you both (again, and again, and again)

1949 A7 Bitsa this, bitsa that!
1979 BMW R80/7 with extensive upgrades...
1983 Moto Morini 3 1/2 Sport

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #3 on: 11.03. 2022 21:53 »
Poppy. If you identify a typical part number for the timing cover screws and then use Musky's Nut and Bolt chart to cross ref, you'll find the thread is 1/4 Whit. In other words the bolt plain shank is 1/4". The thread cut on it is Whitworth, the dimensions, thread angle, pitch etc are a World Wide standard. Any internet search for Whitworth Thread will give the thread dimensions and spec for any common  Whitworth imperial size. In this system the number of threads per inch changes as the diameter of the stock increases.

 A 1/4 Whit  bolt will always have the same pitch, thread angle, peaks and troughs. Whitworth was  possibly the first good all round standardised system, great for Bridges, Ships and  other BIG STUFF. Not so good for the small stuff, hence the various threads evolved to give more suitable fastenings and avoid someone else's patent.

 No doubt a scholar of the threaded arts will be along soon to add more substance to my sketchy thoughts.

 Swarfy.

Offline Big_Ben

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #4 on: 11.03. 2022 21:55 »
Thank you  *smile*

1949 A7 Bitsa this, bitsa that!
1979 BMW R80/7 with extensive upgrades...
1983 Moto Morini 3 1/2 Sport

Online Rex

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #5 on: 12.03. 2022 08:36 »
Incidentally, beware of quoting the generic "Whitworth" when asking about or ordering fasteners. Whit (as in the 1/4" cover screws mentioned above) is a particular threadform, though many quote "Whitworth" when they actually mean "Imperial" threads, encompassing Whit, BSF, BSCy, BPT etc.
 Our US cousins are particularly bad for this. ;)
As said above, keep Metric and SAE tools well away from your BSA, and keep the adjustable for plumbing work only.

Online groily

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #6 on: 12.03. 2022 09:49 »
Incidentally, beware of quoting the generic "Whitworth" when asking about or ordering fasteners. Whit (as in the 1/4" cover screws mentioned above) is a particular threadform, though many quote "Whitworth" when they actually mean "Imperial" threads, encompassing Whit, BSF, BSCy, BPT etc.
Yup. I think 'Whitform' is a decent word to cover 55° threads Rex, but the confusion caused by using 'Whitworth' too broadly is very real in places where the vagaries of imperial systems aren't overly appreciated! (Round here, eg!) Mind you, I retaliate with mutterings about all the various differences in the metric system too, which aren't all simple either  . . .
Bill

Offline muskrat

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #7 on: 12.03. 2022 11:34 »
G'day Poppy.
The talk of tools made me think. Today I went up to the tool shop and bought a set of WW spanners and sockets. I've been using the burnt rusty ones rescued from the fire. Just cheap ones $120 spanners, $90 sockets. I like Metrinch tools, one kit does the BSA, Honda and HD.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
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Offline Big_Ben

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #8 on: 12.03. 2022 11:57 »
Always good to buy tools. My new tool chest arrived yesterday, but sadly it got severely whacked en route and needs to be replaced.

1949 A7 Bitsa this, bitsa that!
1979 BMW R80/7 with extensive upgrades...
1983 Moto Morini 3 1/2 Sport

Online Rex

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #9 on: 12.03. 2022 13:15 »
If you get to one of the larger autojumbles there's usually stalls flogging off ancient Imperial-sized spanners etc.
Check the jaws aren't strained or ground-out and you'll probably get just about every size you'll need for under twenty quid the lot.

Online RDfella

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #10 on: 12.03. 2022 15:48 »
Look up Amazon - set of Whit spanners £19. Set of Whit sockets (1/2" drive) £25.
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Offline Big_Ben

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #11 on: 12.03. 2022 18:02 »
I got Sealey 1/2" sockets and Siegan (Sealey's cheaper brand) combined spanners.

I already had a few Gedore whitworth C spanners.

That should be me good for a while.

Amusingly enough getting the gearbox cover off necessitated the use of my old school impact driver for the first time in at least twenty years! I know some on here don't like them, but I'm a total fan of alen head screws. Seized or over tightened slot head screws? No thanks...

And, no, I don't over tighten them...

1949 A7 Bitsa this, bitsa that!
1979 BMW R80/7 with extensive upgrades...
1983 Moto Morini 3 1/2 Sport

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #12 on: 19.03. 2022 07:58 »
Car boot sales is where I find most tools
Grandad dies & they sell a "box of spanners "
Look for ones that are black or dark brown
They will be made from very strong steel that untill th 80's could not be chromed easily
Also as there is no chrome , it can not flake off and make the tool loose.

Push bike stalls at swap meets are also good places to shop because untill very recient times there were a lot of Whitworth on push bikes.

2 minute thread leasson
Whitworth was an engineer in the steam age.
Back then threads were mostly cut on lathes or thread cutters so there were thousands of them but the UK finally decided to use Mr Whitworths threads.
However they were designed to work with the most common engineering metal at the time,,, grey cast iron so they had big heads proportional to the shaft size
During WWII when metal was scarce the heads were reduced as steel had bypassed cast iron.
Now to avoid every mechanic buying  a complete new tool chest , they just used the next smaller head size, although it is actually a touch too small
When they did this the name changed from Whitworth to British Standard Whitworth and even the shorter British Standard
SO a tool can be marked W, WW , BSW or BS .
Because Whitworth was designed for use in cast iron it was found too coarse for steel so a new finner thread was introduced called British Standard Fine or BSF
the head sizes of BSF are the same as BSW or BS.
BSF replaced CEI ( Cycle engineers Institute ) or BSC (British Standard Cycle ) and they use the same head sizes as BSW / BSF as well.
The other confusing thread is British Association ( BA ) You will find these on Amal , Lucas , Smiths & Miller items 
The bolts on your points are 4 BA.
BA works on standard wire gauges so it is backwards, the bigger the number the smaller the shaft
Some BSW tools will fit some BA and from memory BSA will only have 2BA, 3BA & 4BA at the worst .
So keep your eyes peeled for a set of Magneto spanners, they are usually pressed metal and on a keychain of some kind
The chart of head sizes is really handy till you get your head around it . not as complicated as it sounds.
Biggest size on an A10 is 1/2" but most will be 1/4 ,  3/8 or 5/16
If you go for sockets look for 3/8 drive sockets which are slender so can get into those impossible places

A lot of aftermarket stuff, like muffler clamps will have Metric fasteners so I go to a boating supply shop & buy BSW or BSF marine grade stainless to replace the metric nuts & bolts.
Same story for mirrors & handle bar levers .
 
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #13 on: 19.03. 2022 08:01 »

Amusingly enough getting the gearbox cover off necessitated the use of my old school impact driver for the first time in at least twenty years! I know some on here don't like them, but I'm a total fan of alen head screws. Seized or over tightened slot head screws? No thanks...

And, no, I don't over tighten them...

If you use socket head bolts into alloy it is vital that you put big washers under them to spread the load or you will collapse the metal into the hole or the head will enlarge the hole & eventually pull through .
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Offline Big_Ben

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Re: Tools, spanners, whitworth
« Reply #14 on: 19.03. 2022 08:30 »
Thank you Trevor for both posts, that is excellent and helpful information.

1949 A7 Bitsa this, bitsa that!
1979 BMW R80/7 with extensive upgrades...
1983 Moto Morini 3 1/2 Sport