Author Topic: Musky's Plunger rebuild.  (Read 7511 times)

Offline RichardL

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #15 on: 01.02. 2022 12:22 »
Me, again. Not intending to jam the airwaves, but, another question. Do you use the original crankcacase studs that are next to the through-studs?

Richard L.

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #16 on: 01.02. 2022 19:01 »
G'day Richard.
That is a casting line in the 4th photo.
In my apprenticeship I missed the 6 months of welding in the blacksmiths shop and spent it in the machine shop, they were down 1 tradesman. I can glue two pieces of steel together but that's all. I have a stick/mig/tig machine, the son will have to teach me how to use it. Yes a mill would be handy (I need a bigger shed already!).

G'day BON.
There is a local engineer that knows his stuff. I'll give him a look. Yes I plan on building those areas up inside and out. If I remember correctly  *roll* there is about 1/8 gap between inside of case and the barrel skirt.

Or should I be looking for another set of cases?
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
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Muskys Plunger A7

Offline RichardL

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #17 on: 01.02. 2022 21:07 »
If you saw the post that was once here, forget it. The crankcase I saw on eBay blows.

Richard L.

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #18 on: 03.02. 2022 19:18 »
G'day Fellas.
Starting to make a list of parts required. Thought I'd treat the new build to an SRM oil pump. All major suppliers I've used in the past including SRM are out of stock. Found one at De Groot just awaiting an email of how many beer tickets.
Guesstamate on cost of rebuild at this stage is $3K.  *eek*
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
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Muskys Plunger A7

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #19 on: 07.02. 2022 09:53 »
G'day Fellas.
Pump on it's way fro DeGroot just a tad under $600AU.
Now for the bad news. My local guru said it would cost an arm and a leg to fix the cases properly (he is pedantic,builds race motors).
So please see Wanted section.
I'll keep gathering parts needed for a full rebuild and hope I have some luck before the National in October.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #20 on: 07.02. 2022 18:54 »
G'day Fellas.
I was a bit down last night and parts had arrived for the XT so put my mind to that.
Got up at 5am to check my emails and saw a few responses.
Richard, I owe you a big sloppy kiss. Usually after checking in on the Forum I have a look at ebay. I'll send him a message. And he's just down the road (500 miles)
berger, ebay must have changed something, searching just for a listing # gives me nothing.
Swarfy, I can modify it to take a seal. Finally get to use the lathe without the gap.

It's a 52 model so not far out. Now for the big question. Do I turn her into an A10 *????* I'd need the top end and a crank (bugga I used to have them!!)
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
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Muskys Plunger A7

Offline RichardL

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #21 on: 07.02. 2022 19:38 »
G'day Fellas.
I was a bit down last night and parts had arrived for the XT so put my mind to that.
Got up at 5am to check my emails and saw a few responses.
Richard, I owe you a big sloppy kiss. Usually after checking in on the Forum I have a look at ebay. I'll send him a message. And he's just down the road (500 miles)
berger, ebay must have changed something, searching just for a listing # gives me nothing.
Swarfy, I can modify it to take a seal. Finally get to use the lathe without the gap.

It's a 52 model so not far out. Now for the big question. Do I turn her into an A10 *????* I'd need the top end and a crank (bugga I used to have them!!)
Cheers

A pint of your favorite would be quite adequate, if I ever get down there. Thank you.

Richard L.

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #22 on: 07.02. 2022 20:15 »
G'day Fellas.
I was a bit down last night and parts had arrived for the XT so put my mind to that.
Got up at 5am to check my emails and saw a few responses.
Richard, I owe you a big sloppy kiss. Usually after checking in on the Forum I have a look at ebay. I'll send him a message. And he's just down the road (500 miles)
berger, ebay must have changed something, searching just for a listing # gives me nothing.
Swarfy, I can modify it to take a seal. Finally get to use the lathe without the gap.

It's a 52 model so not far out. Now for the big question. Do I turn her into an A10 *????* I'd need the top end and a crank (bugga I used to have them!!)
Cheers

Musky, you must have searched ebay.com or au and not ebay.co.uk (they are different) see pic

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1968 B44 Victor Special (3rd finished project)
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Offline RichardL

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #23 on: 07.02. 2022 20:53 »
Well, Muskie can very well think and speak for himself, but it seems to me that the one in Oz for AU$470 is a better bargain after welding, filing, grinding, shaping and shipping. (not that I figured that out in advance).

Richard L.

Offline chaterlea25

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #24 on: 07.02. 2022 22:55 »
Hi All
I would agree with Richard, the UK ebay one mentioned needs a lot of repair
37 plonker has two other sets of crankcases a lot rougher than the set linked to
but they also need welding

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline BagONails

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #25 on: 08.02. 2022 01:31 »
It is a tricky one Musky for sure. I wish I could help you out as I can Tig weld reasonably well, pretty much anything but so much depends on the material. I have had cast ally that welded easily and cleanly no worries at all and I've had some that was an absolute nightmare.  Anyone taking the job on is taking a big risk that they might have all sorts of trouble and then the issue becomes their problem. I think this is why these sorts of repairs are normally so expensive to get done, they would really rather you took the job down the street to someone else!

If you are considering replacements then have a go yourself! Nothing to lose really. Do lots of practice, checkout the Uni of YouTube. You must have heaps of suitable tryout pieces lying around in the shed! Preparation is everything so dig it out as much as you can, clean it up with acetone and then clean it some more.  Heat it up as hot as you dare with Oxy or a propane torch and let rip with the tig.  Build up successsive layers and keep going until you know you've put enough on or you'll have to heat it all up again.  Don't worry about putting too much on, you can always file/die grind/ machine it off again.

Lets face it it is not that critical. The bike was running for god knows how long with those severely weakened and cracked threads and everything was fine! You only need to do enough...

Have some fun with it and who knows you might even get a result  *smile*
Ian
59 GF A10
67 Spitfire under resto
2013 kwaka W800 Desert Sled (ex write off)

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #26 on: 08.02. 2022 08:03 »
G'day Fellas.
I bought the $470AU one in Melbourne. Still by the time I replace all the bushes and bits add another $5-600. I just bought an SRM pump from DeGroot for $595 so that's a grand and a half and a lot to go. SRM cam & followers $720 etc etc. Expecting around the $4K mark.
For a 40 hr week I get $800 *pull hair out*
Ho Hum off twerk I go.
Cheers
PS: Yes Kiwi I searched International but didn't realize UK has their own  *roll*
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
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Muskys Plunger A7

Offline RDfella

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #27 on: 08.02. 2022 14:28 »
Looks like I'm too late - was going to advise Musky to avoid buying new cases and sort the originals instead. Mainly because what's causing the problem still remains - drilling the cases for through bolts. There simply isn't enough 'meat' there for it to survive.
Yes, I'm aware cracks can be strange things, often travelling further than realised, but never the less I'd have prepared them for welding plus counter-bored the through-bolt holes to around 3/4" dia x 1" deep. I'd then have turned up some plugs to snugly fit those holes from LM25 and had them welded in too. As for cost, I was surprised at Musky's quote. The guy I use used to run a stainless / alloy fabrication shop and his welds are superb (example attached). I'd estimate his bill to weld those cracks and attach those plugs would be around £30.  The inserts suggested would, if decently hand-finished, not look out of place. Maybe even be passed off as a BSA comp-shop special! At least there'd be no more cracking.

Of course, welding invites the annoyance of distortion. Here, having learnt from my initial attempt at modifying my GF rear chaincase, I'd recommend annealing the cases after welding before any 'tweaking' was carried out. I discovered my rear case was as brittle as cast iron and cracked extensively under tweaking because I didn't anneal it first. On reflection, 60yrs being vibrated by an engine would certainly be enough to cause work-hardening. Not straightforward, though, as annealing really requires knowledge of the material in hand. I'd expect chaincases, being die-cast thin section, to be LM6 (high silicon) or similar. On the other hand, BSA crankcases are usually sand cast and, being 'chunky' would not require much silicon. Maybe LM4, then.
But what about semi-unit cases? They have an attached thin section (daft idea, combining the chaincase with the crankcase - makes casting and machining unnecessarily more difficult) and so the silicon content of these may be higher than expected.
The reason I mention this, is because annealing alloy varies fairly widely according to type and, to further complicate matters, high silicon variants can act a bit strange when it comes to machining after anneal. For the record, I annealed my chaincase inner at 300*C in the Rayburn oven for a couple of hours, letting the temp slowly reduce over another couple of hours to around 150 before removal. Seemed to work OK and was nicely pliable when it came to removing distortion.
   
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #28 on: 08.02. 2022 18:45 »
G'day RD.
Thanks for the insight. You certainly know you stuff.
Yes the whole problem is due to the through bolting exercise. The top end of the plunger motor was a hand me down from the A7SS racer. The head & barrels had been modified for through bolts so drilled the plunger cases. My mistake was drilling oversize to take 5/16 helicoils and not having enough meat around them. The racer had weld built up inside & out around those spots.
So now the  *????* is do I look for a std head & barrels for the new/old cases.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

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Re: Musky's Plunger rebuild.
« Reply #29 on: 08.02. 2022 19:04 »
G'day BON
Thanks for the encouragement. I have a new stick/mig/tig welder, I've only ever done stick. I'll get #2 son over to show me how to use it.

Now to start spending the kids inheritance  *grins*
The SRM web site is a pain. Click on A7 A10, click on bottom end, 39 pages of mostly Notrun or Trihard stuff.  *pull hair out*
My list so far = $2071.90AUD + the $1000 already spent.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7