Author Topic: Plunger A10 layshaft thrust washers  (Read 900 times)

Offline ttrand

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Plunger A10 layshaft thrust washers
« on: 15.01. 2022 19:00 »
I have an early plunger gear box. After disassembly I found that the kickstarter return spring (early flat spring) was bust. Also clutch arm pivot hole was worn, so I decided to replace outer casing with a later one; new better kickstarter spring/quadrant etc. I also noticed that the holes on the inside of the outer (timing side) big pinion were worn down, and the second pinion had corresponding wear on the dogs which engage into the first pinion. I had spares so replaced those, and put the thrust washer between those two pinions, instead of outside, where it was installed (incorrectly, I think). After hours of research, I think this is now correct, otherwise those two pinions will clatter in neutral..

I also found another thrust washer in the inside (clutch-end) of the layshaft, next to the bronze cap bushing. After bolting it all back together, I seem to be bound up, as I fasten the cases together again. When I slack off the bolts, everything moves and selects better. Now I think that the Clutch-end thrust washer should not be there… Can anyone confirm ?
Grew up in the UK, had a ‘72 Tiger TR6P there. Various metric bikes, then a ‘75 CB550F I just finished. Now back to my roots with a recently acquired 1951 Sprung Frame Golden Flash, complete, but not running

Offline trevinoz

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Re: Plunger A10 layshaft thrust washers
« Reply #1 on: 15.01. 2022 21:48 »
Thrust washer should be on the other end inboard of the last gear.

Offline Greybeard

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Re: Plunger A10 layshaft thrust washers
« Reply #2 on: 15.01. 2022 22:57 »
Hi,
As this seems to be your first post please will you stroll over to the Introductions area and tell us a little about yourself and your motorcycle experience. Welcome.
Greybeard (Neil)
2023 Gold Star
Supporter of THE DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE https://www.gentlemansride.com

Warwickshire UK


A Distinguished Gentleman Riding his 1955 Plunger Golden Flash

Offline muskrat

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Re: Plunger A10 layshaft thrust washers
« Reply #3 on: 16.01. 2022 02:12 »
G'day tt.  *welcome*
Say g'day over here https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?board=13.0
Start a new topic.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: Plunger A10 layshaft thrust washers
« Reply #4 on: 16.01. 2022 17:42 »
    Layshaft fixed pinion should be level with. or just proud of the end of the layshaft splines. The correct pinion has a groove to locate against the  layshaft circlip, so sets the position on the layshaft. There is only one thrust washer, so two in the box points to either wear on the bush faces, incorrect parts or maybe a missing circlip and the pinion is too far onto the layshaft.

 The big bottom gear cog outside face runs against the inner cover layshaft bush and the inside face runs against the thrust washer which bears onto the layshaft, within the sliding layshaft second gear. The layshaft here has a change of diameter, with a smoothed radius rather than an abrupt sharp change. The correct thrust washer  is internally champhered to clear the smoothed radius, so must be fitted with the champher towards the clutch side. Plunger and Swinging Arm boxes share the the same shaft and bush diameters. Layshafts have minor differences, but can be swapped between boxes complete with their gears. Expect mix'n match with any bike of unknown pedigree!

 Swarfy.

Offline ttrand

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Re: Plunger A10 layshaft thrust washers
« Reply #5 on: 17.01. 2022 23:39 »
    Layshaft fixed pinion should be level with. or just proud of the end of the layshaft splines. The correct pinion has a groove to locate against the  layshaft circlip, so sets the position on the layshaft. There is only one thrust washer, so two in the box points to either wear on the bush faces, incorrect parts or maybe a missing circlip and the pinion is too far onto the layshaft.

 The big bottom gear cog runs against the inner cover layshaft bush and the thrust washer which bears onto the layshaft, within the sliding layshaft second gear. The layshaft here has a change of diameter, with a smoothed radius rather than an abrupt sharp change. The correct thrust washer  is internally champhered to clear the smoothed radius, so must be fitted with the champher towards the clutch side. Plunger and Swinging Arm boxes share the the same shaft and bush diameters. Layshafts have minor differences, but can be swapped between boxes complete with their gears. Expect mix'n match with any bike of unknown pedigree!

 Swarfy.
Swarfy, thanks for that. It all makes sense now. I am currently debating which way to go; swap out original gearbox for a spare which came with the bike. The spare box casing doesn’t have the damage my original gearbox does: gouges, a poor condition layshaft bushing, and a chipped bolt housing. See images below.

I understand that its possible to remove gearbox, by shifting engine in the frame. Sounds like a hassle, Yikes! Anyone tried this lately?

Also, I have a couple of gears which I’m unsure which/whether to use. What’s worse, chipped /pitted teeth vs. Rounded off ones? (See images below). I’m grateful for any advice/opinions/ideas.

Thanks again for this remarkable forum!
Grew up in the UK, had a ‘72 Tiger TR6P there. Various metric bikes, then a ‘75 CB550F I just finished. Now back to my roots with a recently acquired 1951 Sprung Frame Golden Flash, complete, but not running

Offline Greybeard

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Re: Plunger A10 layshaft thrust washers
« Reply #6 on: 18.01. 2022 09:14 »
I understand that its possible to remove gearbox, by shifting engine in the frame.
I'll be interested to see a reply to that question.
Greybeard (Neil)
2023 Gold Star
Supporter of THE DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE https://www.gentlemansride.com

Warwickshire UK


A Distinguished Gentleman Riding his 1955 Plunger Golden Flash

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: Plunger A10 layshaft thrust washers
« Reply #7 on: 18.01. 2022 09:26 »
 It is a real hassle to change a Plunger Gearbox, but  as you have found with the exception of the mainshaft output bearing, drive sleeve, seal and sprocket, plus the camplate pivot, the box can be reduced to the main casing and blind layshaft bush while still in the frame.

 That said the blind bush is the awkward one and is prone to wear, along with that end of the layshaft. My suggestion is to swap the casing for the best one, and at the same time attend to the sprocket, seal and ball race as required. These are common across the range.  The layshaft and its bush can be done at the same time. All this is in the Forum, just a matter of searching. Some folks fit a sprocket with extra teeth for more relaxed cruising and sod the speedo. Sprocket change can only be done with the box out of the frame.

  Select the best gears, pitted teeth will drive OK, but may be a little noisy. Worn dogs will jump out of engagement, so if you have no choice, go for pitted teeth. All the other internals can be upgraded later as required, without removing the box.  All threads into alloy are Whitworth, and beware of muck at the bottom of blind holes, Bearings and bushes pop out easily if the castings are given a good warm up, spit dancing temperature works fine.

 The big dilemma is how far do you go? Even with worn parts you'll get a rough runner. Swapping the box requires a degree of dexterity and a way of lifting the engine and gearbox from the frame as a unit. The book says it can be done more or less in one piece, Service Sheet 205 shows how. Dead easy if a nut and bolt teardown is on the cards for other remedial work, inspection or renovation. Crankshaft health check, sludge trap and timing bush spring to mind.

  If it is a really early flat spring type box, the layshaft pinion and sliding  third gear layshaft dogs differ from later design so must be kept as a pair.. The later type is  from around 1950.  Also you may find the box actually has no oilseal, just a scroll on the sprocket.  Later type seal and sprockets are a straight swap. All depends on what the factory were running at the time. Also after all these years nothing can be assumed to be to original spec.

 When building the box, remember to line up the oil holes on the gears with those on the shaft splines, and from experience leave the little selector rod grub screw 'til last. Smacking the inner cover into place with a selector rod fixed but reluctant to enter its hole will break away the casting  at the grub screw thread.

 Swarfy.