Author Topic: Small vintage lathes  (Read 12691 times)

Online berger

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #165 on: 21.02. 2022 18:52 »
GB two motors came with the lathe

Online groily

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #166 on: 21.02. 2022 18:58 »
Good question. A useful search phrase maybe is 'single phase lathe motor and reversing switch', which will bring up some good You Tube stuff, with a Myford bias (at least from where I am plugged into the interweb). Reverse is a must-have for thread-cutting without disengaging the leadscrew.

OTOH, if you're in for a new one GB by necessity after the smoke, there are real advantages to a three phase motor with an inverter, which gives infinitely variable speed  control without messing with belts and pulleys  too much. Also long-term reliable, 'cos 3 phase motors are just 'better' for variable speed running. (But I haven't got that set-up myself, just have envied those who went that extra mile and I wish I had too. Hindsight  . . . so valuable!)
Bill

Online Rex

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #167 on: 21.02. 2022 21:20 »
These capacitor start motors often seem to develop a sticky centrifugal switch if left unused for a while. Worth checking that switch functions as it should (along with a check of the wiring and insulation) before slinging it out as u/s.
Another advantage of keeping the existing motor is then a Dewhurst switch can be wired in. Easy forward reverse and stop functions then.

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #168 on: 21.02. 2022 21:51 »
Hi All
I have inverters on my lathes and milling machine, Absolutely the Bees knees *ex* *ex*
There were different reasons why I did so on each machine.
The Mill came with a 60Hz motor (USA) and as it sits drive end down on the top of the mill it also is part of the variable belt drive, so replacing it would be a sizeable job
The big Colchester is 7.5Hp 3phase, as a 3phase supply would cost a mint to have brought to the workshop an Inverter + changing the motor connections to 220v 3 phase was the most cost effective, I also changed the control and safety wiring to low voltage. I had found the original 400 v control push button enclosures full of swarf  *warn* *warn*
I later bought a smaller Harrison lathe that cam with a "Transwave" 3ph converter, The noise when it was running was terrible  *eek*.. I had a single phase motor 1440rpm and fitted this instead but still found the "humm" very irritating (I worked in a power station from 1985 to 2009 and had to put up with transformer noise all those years *sad2*)
The original motor was 380-440v only and I could not locate the internal star point to bring the wires out to convert to 220-240v  *????*
I took a chance and bought a 220v single phase input to 380 3 phase output inverter from China for approx €100 .. I built it into an enclosure with a main switch and NVR contactor. I wired the controls and housed them in the old enclosure for the machine light transformer (above the top of the gear box)
This runs the motor very quietly and has now been in use for several years.. The variable speed control can be very useful as the gears are very spread out

John
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Offline BagONails

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #169 on: 21.02. 2022 22:37 »
The inverter idea sounds ideal, particularly in any machine where you have to swap belts and I have one of those Chinese cheap  (240v in 3ph/415v out) inverters sitting on the shelf. There are some losses in torque/power from the motor theoretically, you don't get ought for nought as they say in the north. It doesn't sound like this has been a problem for you John?  I guess you can always run the lathe in lower gears and speed up the motor if you need to.( or take smaller cuts  *sad2*)

Not all 3ph motors are suitable to be run with an inverter. They are either star or delta field connections and usually there is a diagram under the terminal cover. Some motors can be wired either way so you can change it over, others are made one way and cannot be changed. I'm not sure which is the configuration you want but as long as your motor can be either configuration it won't matter. 

TBH my cheap Chinese 240v 2kW motor that replaced the 5HP 3ph. original is still going strong and hasn't been an issue either...
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Online RichardL

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #170 on: 21.02. 2022 23:38 »
GB,

I'm sorry you've had this problem. 

Do you have some pictures of the motor and the burned windings? I think I must be cheap. If the cheapest way to bring the lathe to original operating specs was to buy a cheap, used, 1-phase motor, I (speaking for myself) would probably do that, rather than buy a cheap (but, possibly, more expensive) 3-phase motor PLUS an inverter. Not arguing about advantages or disadvantages of going 3-phase, but we should all remember that this a pocket lathe, not a money-earning beast.

Richard L.

Online berger

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #171 on: 22.02. 2022 00:20 »
hello bill i don't know a lot about lathering but surely the lead screw picks up to the thread your cutting anyway when you engage the half nuts, unless your cutting a metric thread?

Online groily

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #172 on: 22.02. 2022 07:11 »
True Bergs, yes, but not having a thread dial indicator fitted (cheapskate as ever, me) nor a gearbox for that matter, nor even a clutch, I never disengage the lead screw for reversing to start the next cut of the thread, otherwise it's a faff with a loupe and eliminating backlash in topslide and cross slide leadscrews to pick up the thread again. Same for imperial and metric (for which I have some 21 tooth change gears) - the only dead cinch is if occasionally cutting to same pitch as lead screw, when it isn't a problem obviously. No reversing switch = no easy way to maintain tool alignment. Dewhurst is the popular quality choice on Myfords, at least.

Ref your point Richard re inverter and 3 phase, as I said, I don't have  . . .  but with hindsight wish I had bothered, despite the extra cost, because I am a daily user (don't get that wrong!) and variable speed is a massive advantage as Chaterlea says (albeit he's way ahead of most of us with that array of machinery!). In fact I now do have 3 phase everywhere since installing heat pumps so wouldn't need the inverter - if the motor ever dies, it's the way I'll go.
My late mate KenF wouldn't use a single phase motor for that reason, but he had a Super Seven with proper headstock bearings and a higher speed range than the plain bushed versions like mine. I have used both machines extensively and there is no doubt it makes a big difference being instantly able to pick a perfect cutting speed to suit diameter, material, depth and speed of cut, and it helps a lot with the finish. No comparison, in fact, even if 'comparisons are odious' as they say.
Bill

Online Greybeard

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #173 on: 22.02. 2022 08:51 »
A chap on FaceAche wrote:

1/2 Hp is about max for the little Ml4.
Make sure it’s a 4 pole (1400 rpm) and reversible single phase.
You may need to specify shaft diameter to suit your existing motor pulley.
You can go 3 phase and add a phase converter.
There are advantages with a phase converter.
I.e. speed control and with the correct VFD would drive other 3 ph. machines.
Be aware the Ml4 is an older style lathe and the spindle bearing were not built for high speed or high power.


I don't really want or need to go three phase, nor can I justify the cost.
Greybeard (Neil)
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Online Greybeard

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #174 on: 22.02. 2022 09:01 »
Do you have some pictures of the motor and the burned windings?
I did try to get the connection end off the motor but gave up when it wasn't happy to come apart easily. It looks like there is knackered mechanism in that end. Probably a starting system. I have considered stripping the motor and replacing the old connections but I would like a motor that is reversable.
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Offline Swarfcut

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #175 on: 22.02. 2022 13:55 »
 GB, time to put on your outdoor gear and wander the streets looking for a thrown out washing machine before the Tatters get it. With the ever more sophisticated electronics in these machines, a simple circuit board failure consigns them to the dump. Motors are usually OK, speeds and direction varied by simple switching between field windings. Easy for a man of your talents to experiment.

 Brushed motors are simple, induction motors even more so, but have a start capacitor (Cheap Chinese even on expensive machines) which is needless to say a bit fragile.

 As an aside, if your heating boiler/ fan/pump motor won't run, check if it has a start capacitor, a failure here is the first thing to try before condemning the motor.

 Swarfy.

Online berger

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #176 on: 22.02. 2022 15:42 »
Swarfy i'm with you, get in before the tatters get it  *lol*  never heard that one before. i only have a1/4 hoss power on mine and its fine.

Online Rex

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #177 on: 22.02. 2022 18:59 »
I wouldn't say "simple switching". The last one I took out had a ten-way connector plug on it and that would take a bit of working-out without a wiring diagram.

Offline KiwiGF

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #178 on: 22.02. 2022 19:24 »
I have managed to let the blue smoke out of my lathe motor 😬. I've been setting up a NVR stop/start switch. When I'd connected the new wiring and turned on the power there was a flash inside the motor and the power in my shed tripped.
I've had a peek at the innards of the motor and it looks dire; the wiring is rubber insulated and crumbly;  I reckon it's the original pre-war motor. I have probably twisted one of the field connections and it has shorted out.

If its a single phase induction motor most failures are the start capacitor failing, swap in a new one to find out. Capacitors don’t last forever and there are cheaply made ones about.

The single phase to 3 phase converters (with frequency/speed control) from china work well in my experience, I used two (150nzd each delivered) to convert a 3 phase car lift to single phase, it has 2 x 2.6kw 3 phase motors and yes you lose some torque so it lifted 1800kg instead of the book 3200kg but I fixed that by getting cheap toothed pulleys and belts from china and lowering the gearing. Its slow but works.
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Offline Swarfcut

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Re: Small vintage lathes
« Reply #179 on: 22.02. 2022 21:02 »
 Rex, That GB knows more about the vagaries of electrics than most. No probs. Just a walk in the park sorting 10 contacts?

 Swarfy.