Author Topic: Cush Drive Conundrum  (Read 1634 times)

Offline Swarfcut

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Cush Drive Conundrum
« on: 11.09. 2021 18:24 »
   There's a couple of folks with problems concerning the Cush Drive. While in principle the operation is the same, the design changed over the model years and the parts do not interchange without modification.

     The S/A Drive sleeve originally had a machined portion inboard of the sprocket support flange to run on the oilseal. This  part was changed to a separate spacer (67 1138)  and  drive sleeve (42 0069). For 1955 only, drive sleeve 67 1134 is also listed and these latter two parts look the same, but may differ slightly in the width of the sprocket support flange/collar.

      The S/A crank nut is flat faced and bears directly on the end of the splined drive sleeve when the nut is torqued to the accepted 65 Ft Lbs.

   A S/A Drive Sleeve to hand measures 51mm long, with a support flange/collar width of 5mm. Loading on a sprocket and the sliding cush member leaves 8.5mm of the sleeve exposed. Placing the nut onto the sleeve  acts as a stop for the sliding member, so here the maximum lift on the cush is 8.5mm. The spring is 3 1/4 turns of 7.8mm wire (Vernier)

   In this case the space for the assembled spring is 32.5mm, being the distance between the flanges on the cush sliding member and the retaining nut with the cush settled and the nut tightened. Take the full cush lift from this dimension gives a possible compressed length of 24 mm for the spring... Coil bound at maximum lift as in Bag'o Nails earlier post. Add the thickness of the tab washer and it all just about fits.

 These parts are from a 1956 Shooting Star, but should be the same ballpark dimensions for all models. So at least you have some comparison of what's out there. Always assuming my parts are correct....


 The Plunger design has a longer drive sleeve, at 57mm, and with the Duplex Sprocket and sliding member in place, both are more or less level with the cush settled. The Plunger nut  has an extended reduced diameter nose, and the sliding member passes over this as the cush works. Using a later S/A nut will effectively lock the cush drive solid, tightening down on the sleeve or sliding member, which ever is proud.

   Available lift for the cush is the length of the extended nose on the nut in the case of the Plunger. For the S/A, it's the difference in length between the drive sleeve and the sliding member assembled with its chosen sprocket.

 Swarfy

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #1 on: 11.09. 2021 20:41 »
Hi Swarfy and All
I have added a reply to Bagonails clutch adaptor thread with some measurements.
Somewhere around 55/56 BSA changed the primary drive components in order to make room for the enclosed chaincase.
The parts that changed to move the chain case and drive outwards were to the best of my knowledge the cush drive sleeve collar width and the mainshaft adaptor for the clutch, then the primary case was move outwards by adding the big circular spacer between the crankcase and inner primary case.

It would seem that you have the earlier sleeve with 5mm collar ? where the ones I have are all 8mm

I do not have a 55 parts book but am now wondering if there was a change in the spring length (number of turns) as a new spring I bought from Autocycle Eng. has 3 3/4 turns where as the others I  have 3 1/4 turns

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline RDfella

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #2 on: 11.09. 2021 21:32 »
New parts, old parts, wrong parts ... all part of the restoration tapestry.
Surely, in this case, the simple solution would be, regardless of whether parts are wrong / miss-matched or whatever, to turn up a spacer such that the spring is fully compressed when the cams are around 3/4 of their full lift?
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #3 on: 12.09. 2021 00:29 »
swarfy all these parts is a good reason why things get mixed up over the years for whatever reason. in my 54 to57 parts book two springs are listed for s/a model . 67-2062 for 1954    67-1136 for 55/56. the sleeves are 15-1555 1954. 67-1135 1955  42-0070 1956. the bearings which i sometimes call the sleeves are  67-1097  1954  67-1134  1955  42-0069 1956. now i understand why the chap in the shop i talked to in the 80's  told me to go in his box and get what i wanted, and in those days just like now i hadn't got a clue *yeah* *beer* *lol*

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #4 on: 12.09. 2021 08:13 »
 CJ. Yes, parts are  from an early S/A bike, and to echo RD, a simple solution. The SRM type nut is a definite improvement, but as in degsy's recent example, not suitable for plunger models without a modification to allow the cush to lift and yet still tighten onto the drive sleeve.

  Swarfy.

Offline BagONails

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #5 on: 12.09. 2021 11:18 »
I did up a little sketch showing my assembly dimensions (a picture's worth a thousand words, especially one with dimensions on) *smile*

Yes of course I can and probably will end up making a spacer and it is a simple solution. Not however, a perfect one as the cush movement will still be stopped by the spring binding rather than against the nut  as would have been the original design intent.  Whether this'll be an issue down the track remains to be seen but I guess I won't be the first to smash a cush spring.

As can be seen I have an excess of thread behind the nut and if I neglect the silly split pin I can fit a 5mm spacer in there and still have at least 2 threads showing outside the nut, clearance to the primary case remains to be determined.

Another possibility is grinding the ends of the spring. eg. if I can take 1.5mm off each end I can get back to spring just clear of binding at the limit of movement which would be preferable. I have a mate with a surface grinder so maybe we can...I can shave 1mm off the inside face of the nut as well which is much softer than the sleeve. This might make all the difference.

I suppose the main reason for raising this was my surprise as to after renewing almost all the parts with what I have taken as being the correct ones I still had a problem. Anyway hopefully this info will in whole or in part help someone else out one day.
Ian
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67 Spitfire under resto
2013 kwaka W800 Desert Sled (ex write off)

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Online chaterlea25

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #6 on: 12.09. 2021 17:06 »
Hi Ian,
Looking at your drawing the "nut" rebate measures 11.3  much the same as the pattern one I photoed
https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=9646.0
The original I measured was 14.5mm , do you have an original one? as this would add 3.2mm to the space for the spring
I searched again today but cannot find the original or pattern nuts, but found another cush drive cam with an even wider shoulder, fitting this would limit the cam operation to app 3mm
The width of the cam shoulders does not affect the fitted length of the spring only the amount the cam can move before it hits the outer nut face
I think that the shoulder needs to stop the spring compression before the spring becomes coil bound ???
previous measurements,
Quote
I found that the depth of 3 cush drive collar shoulders varied from 9.2mm , 9.5mm & 10mm   
where this one is about 14mm.
Maybe the wide shoulder on this goes with the 5mm collar sleeve to limit the travel and prevent a problem Sav had  *????*

Quote
Reply #8 on: 15.03. 2018 09:31 ยป

Just had this one myself, took the primary chain case off my 1961 A10SR to service and clean the clutch which has been dragging/slipping a little, only to find the cush drive jammed open with the tips of the lobes just engaged, more travel than the limit on the example here, just not quite enough to drop over to the next lobe but to get wedged at the top of the travel. The nut had not loosened off either and split pin was in place. SRM nut arrives this morning so should know more then.



 *conf2*
John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline trevinoz

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #7 on: 12.09. 2021 22:51 »
I think that you will find that 1954 had a four lobe cush.

Online berger

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #8 on: 12.09. 2021 23:23 »
trev i know you are right about that my book shows the 4 lobes and is 1954.

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #9 on: 13.09. 2021 08:07 »
  Ian.  I've revisited the original post, the available space for the spring is the crux of the matter.

 My drive sleeve overall length is near as dammit the same, at 51mm. But my sleeve only has a 5mm collar leaving some 46mm for the sprocket and sliding cush sleeve. From the diagram it looks as if the available cush lift here is a matter of only 3.2mm. My example has 8.5mm. In other words the drive sleeve you have is shorter than expected, or the sliding sleeve and sprocket combination is larger than usual.  The depth of the spring collar on my sliding cush sleeve is 12.5mm, on the nut it's 11mm. I've got some 33mm between the collars to take the spring. These are all from a 1956 model.

  I reckon the drive sleeve you have is not quite right, hence the excess crank thread and lack of space for the spring. Either as a mis machined rogue part or not the right part for use with the sprocket you have. All my sprockets have a barely raised boss to bear against the drive sleeve collar.

 Your 37.4 mm dimension contrasts markedly with what I have (31mm) even after accounting for the differing drive sleeve collar widths, 8mm (yours) versus 5mm (mine).  Here's my drive  sleeve, sprocket and sliding sleeve for comparison. 8.5mm of drive sleeve showing, in effect the available lift on the cush ramps. Plus the backside of a couple of sprockets, showing minimal raised bosses of 0.5mm.

 Swarfy

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #10 on: 13.09. 2021 08:47 »
Ask a silly question time!

Should the cush drive be able to travel over the top of the lobes when the spring is compressed to rest in the next depression? or is it just a shock absorber?

1961 A10SR, spent a fortune at SRM
1961 A7SS, finally the right green
2011 1937 Empire Star, twin port, high pipes, 2023 off to pastures new.
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Online JulianS

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #11 on: 13.09. 2021 09:51 »
Definately should not.

Offline BagONails

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #12 on: 13.09. 2021 14:22 »
Hi John and Swarfy, (and anyone else who's listening!)

Well between us we've probably got one of everything it sounds like, unfortunately my set is the least compatible it seems. Clearly there are a lot of different parts out there in the mix but I will have to try and make this thing work.  I have two basic issues as I see it ( I have other issues but we won't go there)... *eek*

1) I only have a maximum of 3.2mm of cush travel. This is probably not enough for a cushy cush although I've not seen any specs or requirements as regards what the max and min travel should be but I am aiming for a minimum of 5mm, lets say 5 - 8mm would be good, anything more than this probably isn't necessary unless you are a very mechanically unsympathetic pilot.

2) I am coil bound on the spring as soon as I tighten the nut in fact I would say, this is the biggest problem as we really need the nut to tighten hard onto the end of the sleeve bearing as has been very well covered already and the cush is therefore solid with no travel available.

Further to the above whatever I do to increase the travel is no good unless the spring is able to freely compress. If not the spring becomes the limitation on travel when the coils bind and this is undesirable for spring life. It also means the spring is working at maximum even excessive preload and I have an idea this also makes the cush less cushy and reduces spring life.

The way I see this I need to tackle both these issues to obtain some cushtyness so I can increase the travel on the sliding sleeve by putting in a spacer between the nut and the sleeve bearing. Without the spring this will allow more travel and increase the space for the spring by the same amount, however, it wont stop the spring binding as soon as the gap between the shoulders gets back to 24.

ie. In my set up a 5mm spacer gives theoretical cush travel of 8.2 (3.2+5) and a spring gap of 29 (24 +5) but the spring will bind again after 5mm travel.

This means I need to find at least another 4mm clearance between the shoulders say to ensure the spring never binds or remove 4mm off the overall height of the spring, or a combination of both.

At this stage I am reviewing my options as follows:
Change the nut, well this was a new one bought to replace the one that came with, which had been ground down by 3mm on the end by the PO. (He was using an incorrect Plunger drive sleeve bearing with a 5mm shoulder which put the sprocket 3mm out of line with the clutch) No John I don't have a 14.3 nut but if I did I would certainly use it! I could buy another nut say the SRM one but this doesn't give me much improvement so I think I will stick with modifying the one I have. I can pinch 1mm safely here I reckon.

The sliding collar is definitely a problem as you point out Swarfy (thanks for all those measurements by the way very useful). If I could pinch a mm out of the collar I would but it is really hard, carbide doesn't touch it and hard to hold to. If I can find a way I will try to grind 2 off the nose and at least 1 off the shoulder but workholding is the challenge.

The sprocket is a new 22 tooth from Feked and seems correct, at least similar to John's examples with a 1.6mm raised shoulder on the rear. I could grind this down but anything removed here puts the sprocket out of line with the clutch again...

 So the only other option I'm left with as I see it is to grind the spring down. I bought a new spring as well which has 3 1/4 turns but is poorly made and the ends are nowhere near parrallel Also it is smaller on diameter and doesn't quite fit over my sliding collar. My previous spring is much better quality and although 3 1/2 turns squashes to 24 rather than 26!  I intend to 'work' this to reduce its compressed length and reduce the likelyhood of binding up in use. (Grind the end faces down 2mm each end and cut the tails back a little, all to add extra clearance. *work*

Then mostly I am going down the pub!  *beer*




Ian
59 GF A10
67 Spitfire under resto
2013 kwaka W800 Desert Sled (ex write off)

Nil Desperandum

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #13 on: 13.09. 2021 16:23 »
  Ian. That use of a plunger drive sleeve is interesting. To be clear I'm talking here of part 67 2071. This fits the crank, same internal splines, etc, but the OD where the duplex sprocket runs is different, a gnat's knacker under 36mm, but for the S/A sleeve I have it's 35mm. So to fit the S/A sprocket it must have already been ground down. The depth of the internal splines on the sliding sleeve  is also different, S/A splines are marginally shallower, but will fit the Plunger Drive Sleeve. The amount of load bearing area is reduced, so no heroics, just in case.

  If possible using this existing longer Plunger sleeve instead of the correct part would gain the missing mm's (there's around 5mm difference in the two parts). With luck the chain alignment will be too near the crankcase, shims 67 2056/7/8 between the drive sleeve and oilseal spacer  67 1138 will fix this. Not ideal, but at least uses most of what you already have. A Plunger Drive Sleeve to hand has a 6mm collar, under the 8mm one you currently use. The root cause of this conundrum remains. Depth of cush ramps on the Feked sprocket look a little shallower than mine. Could this be it? I've got 9 and 9.5ml on my sprockets, measured from lowest point in the cush ramps to the boss on the back.

 Swarfy.

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Re: Cush Drive Conundrum
« Reply #14 on: 13.09. 2021 23:50 »
Hi Ian
I think Degsy's posts have cracked the problem,, https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=16565.0

This type nut would allow room for the spring  67-2054 *????*

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254121076906

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)