Author Topic: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes  (Read 1003 times)

Offline BeezaDan

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A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« on: 20.08. 2021 22:09 »

Hello All,
A long time since my last post as I have been doing my "down to the last nut & bolt" strip, full investigation, refurbish and rebuild(s) on my exceedingly smoky A10 SR/RGS engine.
After all of the investigations and part rebuilds to test theories (my own and those suggested by you guys, & why its taken a while) I have found a few definites on the reasons for the bad smoke issues especially when engine was hot.
Theory that the high flow SRM oil pump made things worse - proved.
Why? - pump delivering serious amounts of oil into badly worn big end shells and from them into the crank case, coupled with worn and scored bores / pistons where the excess oil was very effectively able to pass the rings into the combustion chambers.
Early phase 1 rebuild and new parts sorted the worn bores, pistons and rings without much improvement in smoking still due to volume of oil being pumped into the bottom end continuing to overcome the rings.
Just to add to the smoke, valve guides not badly worn but getting there, again the high flow pump doing a great job of pushing more oil than usual into the rocker shafts, it also finding its way into the chambers.
So, as I said in an earlier post, a 'perfect storm' of issues all contributing to create a brilliant A10 smoke generator. Causes confirmed via a series of part rebuilds to test our collective (yours and mine) theories.

What's been done ? - bores professionally re-lined back to standard and honed to match a set of new weight matched pistons, rings pins & clips, cylinders top face skimmed ready for crack tested and match skimmed head, spark plug threads worn so custom made brass inserts fitted along with new valve guides machined to match valves, which were fitted and re-ground at correct angle to achieve perfect seals, ports gas flowed and polished (not really necessary but hey, wth). Rockers & shafts checked, new rocker bolts, new RGS valve springs. Crankshaft sludge trap removed and cleaned out, new plugs, journals re-ground and match machined for new glacier big end shells, crank dynamic balance checked and adjusted, oil galleries cleaned out, new oil lines. SRM high strength rods checked, new big end bolts.
Cam and cam bushes checked, bushes replaced and line bored to match cam, cam followers replaced. New oil NRV spring & ball, oil PRV checked. Copper head gasket, copper rocker box gaskets, all new case gaskets etc, all oil seals replaced including crank end feed seal. This replacement definitely necessary as SRM confirm that it is normal for momentary pressure on this seal to potentially get up to 100psi before the SRM PRV inertia is overcome and it operates.
All engine casing stud and bolt holes checked for any distortion. Magneto advance unit refurbished and new springs fitted. Magneto cam ring found to be producing uneven spark timing between cylinders, fixing this problem proved to be a real pain so opted to fit a Thorspark electronic ignition system. What a revelation that is! Really easy to fit and set up. Spark timing between cylinders is now absolutely spot on. My Lucas magneto had been fully refurbished and apart from the uneven spark timing was working as it should but the Thorspark provides a really fat healthy spark even at gentle kick-over revs. So much easier to start the bike now and it runs a lot smoother. I have fitted it so that engine still looks like it has normal magneto ignition.
I have read a lot of the posts for and against electronic ignition and I am definitely not saying that the Magneto is no good cos' its fine, it works well on the road and has its advantages, just reporting that my first foray into electronic ignition on an A10 has been a real success and I now prefer it. At the end of the day its personal preference. I have managed to hide the Thorspark wires so you can't tell that they are there, plus get the engine kill button working as it would do on a magneto ignition, so the bike looks and operates as it should. (I can also revert to full magneto ignition really easily in the future if I ever decide to).
Carb jetting has been a challenge. Leaving the pilot and needle jets standard (25 and 106) and needle at position 2, I have tried different sized jets from 290 to 320, to 380 to 400 through to the 420 as stated in the manuals for this engine. Best jet so far is the 380, which is pretty spot on, that said, am going to try a 390 just to see if its just that bit better.
I also replaced the 19 tooth gearbox sprocket for a 20 tooth, which has had a dramatic effect on the road. Engine seems to pull better, cruise better, is less stressed and feels smoother. Possibly the 19 tooth was not the right size when used with my belt primary drive conversion.
(I changed to a 20 tooth on one of my A10's years ago and had a similar experience).

So, what turned out to be the main cause of the damage that caused the bad smoking and promoted all of this work?
Turns out that a previous refurbisher/owner had had the frame and some parts including the oil tank grit blast cleaned before repainting. You got it!, he didn't clean the oil tank out properly (or at all?) afterwards, which on running it for 2k miles very successfully wrecked the mains and most of the other sliding surfaces, plus seals etc. This confirmed by what I found in the crank sludge trap, the oil lines, the bottom of the oil tank, and inside the return oil side filter when I took it apart. If that filter hadn't been fitted I doubt that the engine would have lasted 200 miles let alone 2000.
Its been a challenging journey and I have learnt a heck of a lot going through it.
Result now; a fantastic, smooth running, non-smoking, smile provoking and very enjoyable BSA A10. Don't really mind if something else goes wrong, just gives me another opportunity to do some more fettling on this amazing machine.
Thanks all once again all for your; advice, theories, ideas, thoughts and support. If I can help any of you as a result of what I have learnt through this and previous experience, let me know.
BeezaDan.

Offline chaterlea25

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #1 on: 20.08. 2021 23:26 »
Hi Dan,
A good write up on your "adventures"
Did you get the SRM pump checked out? it must have pumped grit through itself that would surely have caused damage?
I have found that my SR will run very happily with a 23 tooth engine sprocket , 23/43 primary and 19/42 secondary
sprockets , and a 100/90 rear tyre

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline BeezaDan

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #2 on: 20.08. 2021 23:51 »
Hi John, yes, everything checked and double checked before rebuild.
I tried a 23 tooth some years ago, great for motorway cruising but I felt that it was a bit long for country roads. Happy with the 20 tooth for the kind of riding I do.
Dan.

Offline Seabee

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #3 on: 21.08. 2021 00:58 »
Congrats Dan on a great result!
1961 Super Rocket
1957 Road Rocket
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1993 Harley Springer Softtail
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Offline Jules

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #4 on: 21.08. 2021 01:32 »
Hi Dan, agree what a great outcome, must have cost you an arm and leg though!! and a good pickup from John, what did you do with the SRM pump?

Offline BeezaDan

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #5 on: 21.08. 2021 11:18 »
Hi Jules, Thanks for the comments. On dissassembly and inspection by my machine shop wizard, the SRM pump checked out absolutey fine, which was a welcome surprise. Don't know what they do with the surfaces but it showed no signs of any serious damage or wear. Flow testing after reassembly showed a consistent 100 psi before the flow rig pump protection prv kicked in.
Whoever designed them in the uprated form with new materials did a great job. They may be expensive but you do get what you pay for.
Dan.


Offline sean

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #6 on: 21.08. 2021 13:39 »
on a similar note I just had liners installed on my cylinders the machine shop decided to wet blast the base of the cylinders before setting up .
when they were finally ready 5 months later I picked them up and the owner said they have been cleaned and ready to install .....I dont like the idea of grit particles so thought I would double check and found several bits of grit tucked away in the push rod tunnel about a quarter of a teaspoon all together would have made short the life of my rebuilt motor .
after finding the grit I spent the good part of a day cleaning and washing the cylinders in the kitchen sink .

Offline BagONails

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #7 on: 21.08. 2021 14:13 »
Sorry you had such troubles Dan, I don't think you are the first to be caught out like this. The same thing happened to my bike when the P/O was rebuilding it. The oil tank was media blasted and not properly sealed. I don't think this is a safe method of cleaning/preparing any engine parts for paint due to the risk of grit getting where it shouldn't.

Just wondering how you cleaned out your oil tank in the finish? My one has been completely split down the original joint, cleaned and re welded up again. This was the only way they could be sure they'd removed all the grit apparently. Of course I wont know if they were successful until the time comes for an engine strip in the future   :! ....
Ian
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67 Spitfire under resto
2013 kwaka W800 Desert Sled (ex write off)

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Offline RDfella

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #8 on: 21.08. 2021 15:45 »
Clearly a lack of attention to detail by the person preparing for blasting. Whenever faced with a boat engine requiring overhaul (invariably rust in places, sometimes mostly rust) I used to remove the ancillaries (alternator, starter etc) and then block every orifice carefully - making blanking plates etc where necessary. Then it was grit blast and prime, followed by a strip down and paraffin gun with Jizer. Then a hose down internally and finishing off with petrol in the gun and then an airline gun. Never had a problem, though I would never recommend blasting anything already stripped down. Matter of fact I recently had an A10 oil tank grit blasted. With an old filler cap and filter gauze cap in place, the breather and oil pipes blocked, how can grit get in?
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline BeezaDan

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #9 on: 21.08. 2021 19:19 »
Hi Guys,
Oil tank was blasted out with high pressure solvent (some residual grit found in the drained solvent), then an extensive washing with v'hot detergent + water a number of times (no grit came out), then high pressure blasted with plain hot water. I doubt that anything could have survived in the tank after that but I put an endoscope camera in to check it out around the seams and found nothing.
A final good shake with isopropyl alcohol resulted in nothing untoward coming out at all.
I thought about splitting the tank to clean it but decided not to in case the re-weld introduced any hard welding flux into the area if the inner seams that might come loose in operation later on.
Dan.

 

Offline RDfella

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #10 on: 21.08. 2021 19:46 »
Quote
Turns out that a previous refurbisher/owner had had the frame and some parts including the oil tank grit blast cleaned before repainting. You got it!, he didn't clean the oil tank out properly (or at all?)

If done properly, a tank would have no need of being cleaned out afterwards because grit would not get in in the first place. Not a question of not cleaning out but, as previously stated, poor preparation.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online Triton Thrasher

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #11 on: 21.08. 2021 20:43 »
It’s a safe assumption that grit always gets in and you never get all of it out.


Online Rex

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #12 on: 21.08. 2021 22:31 »
Quite so.
Comes down to a simple choice; spend your time preparing the oil tank for painting by hand, or spend your time endlessly cleaning it after a quick blast to prepare it for paint?

Offline sean

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #13 on: 22.08. 2021 02:05 »
When I bead blasted my head I plugged all the ports with stoppers from the wine store and removable silicone on the rest of the holes I didn’t want beads in and made a cover for the combustion area from some laminate flooring also stuck on with silicone turned well very little cleaning needed after

Offline IVO

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Re: A10 Serious Smoking - The Outcomes
« Reply #14 on: 22.08. 2021 14:18 »
Grit blasting engine parts cost me a lot of cleaning time too so the last time I used soda blast for the aluminium and it worked a treat. A flush with high pressure hot water and all done, no nasty grit.