Author Topic: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch  (Read 2176 times)

Offline Dean

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Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« on: 13.06. 2021 19:14 »
Does anyone know iof there is an off the shelf conversion to the 4 spring clutch for the plunger 6 sping clutch?
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Offline Greybeard

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #1 on: 13.06. 2021 23:24 »
I don't know the answer to your question but I do know that the 6 spring clutch used on the plunger bikes is superior to the swing-arm 6 spring clutch.
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Offline Minto

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #2 on: 14.06. 2021 00:16 »
I don't know the answer to your question but I do know that the 6 spring clutch used on the plunger bikes is superior to the swing-arm 6 spring clutch.

Yes, apparently if set up well the plunger 6 spring clutch is very good indeed... I have yet to experience this. Mine after adjusting the drag and slip out of it and stopped the cover allowing all the primary drive oil in to soak the plates, still requires Popeye to operate it.
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Online KiwiGF

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #3 on: 14.06. 2021 00:25 »
Does anyone know iof there is an off the shelf conversion to the 4 spring clutch for the plunger 6 sping clutch?

I also do not know the answer to your question but have heard a norton commando clutch fits the splines of a plunger mainshaft, I have not tried this out but thought it worth mentioning in case you have some mates with notruns  *smile*

I am not sure which year commando, or if it is a diaphragm spring clutch.
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Online Joolstacho

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #4 on: 14.06. 2021 01:30 »
Wish I could help more, BUT yes, there is -or at least was an adaptor to fit the 4-spring clutch replacing the 6-spring one.
I did mine about 35 years ago but I can't remember where I got the adaptor sorry. I bought a lot of stuff from Armours at the time, maybe try them?

Offline Black Sheep

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #5 on: 14.06. 2021 06:45 »
The 6 spring plunger clutch is pretty good. If it's as heavy as a Norton Atlas there's something far wrong. Go back to basics - cable routing, cable lubrication/replacement, spring strengths, clutch plates. You know the drill.
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Offline Greybeard

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #6 on: 14.06. 2021 09:45 »
... still requires Popeye to operate it.
My clutch slips if I give the bike too many beans, the clutch operation is easy-squeezy. I will take the cover off and tighten the springs when I can be arsed.
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Online Rex

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #7 on: 14.06. 2021 18:59 »
After a lot of plate tweaking etc the clutch on my plunger is pretty sweet now. Nice feel and little/no crunching into gear.
Not as good as the Ariel or Scott, but pretty good for a BSA... ;)

Offline a10 gf

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #8 on: 14.06. 2021 20:24 »
On the plunger back in the days, after beeing sure all parts were in good shape (replacing whatever was needed) I spent quite some time fine tuning the springs for a completely even lift all around + finding out the right pressure slip vs easy to operate. ...& don't mind a dose of normal clutch assembly wooble.

At the end the old 6 spring system became perfect in every way. imo it's a good piece of engineering, just needs it's tlc. One of the absolutely best behaving parts on my bike.


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Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #9 on: 15.06. 2021 09:12 »
The spline on the mainshaft of the plunger box is the same as the Burman boxes used by just about everyone other than BSA & Triumph.
AFAIK just about any Burman clutch will fit on the shaft , after that it is just finding one that will fit inside your primary with the right number of teeth .
Never been able to have this confirmed but I have always though that BSA bought in those plunger boxes complete with clutch.
Particularly as the plunger B & M series use a std BSA clutch
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Offline Greybeard

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #10 on: 15.06. 2021 09:45 »
Never been able to have this confirmed but I have always though that BSA bought in those plunger boxes complete with clutch.
Interesting. Who knows about the Ariel Huntmaster clutch?
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Online Rex

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #11 on: 15.06. 2021 10:23 »
I wouldn't hanker after a Burman clutch on a BSA. I have a Burman BAP box on a Panther, and they're renowned for having a poor lift mechanism giving less lift and plate separation than would be ideal. 
Getting a crunch-free shift into first at a standstill is next to impossible, and takes DTI accuracy on the pressure plate and a slow steam engine tickover to get anywhere near. The plunger clutch is far nicer to use.

Offline Rocket Racer

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #12 on: 20.01. 2022 21:11 »
was just looking at clutch posts and stumbled on this one. Pleased to hear your plunger clutch behaving. It should! They are a good clutch, far superior to the subsequent early swing arm clutches which were suitable for a washing machine.

I run a belt drive BNR on two of my later preunits and I did talk to Bob about semi units and they can readily take a BNR. Can run dry and don't need the adjuster.
So if your clutch was totally stuffed and you have deep enough pockets a BNR is also an option.

I'm a BNR convert, just pondering that I need a third one for a further build in progress.
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Offline Jules

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #13 on: 20.01. 2022 23:56 »
Just out of interest, why is the plunger 6 spring clutch so superior to the early s/a 6 spring clutch? they appear very similar, so what did they change to make it so much worse....
I remember my old '57/58 A7 back then was a really heavy clutch and hard to balance drive/slip. Reading the forum notes, it seems that precision setup with a dial indicator is the only way forward, plus good cables.
Modern tech cables should help a lot I would have thought, the old cables with multi strand steel in (spring?) steel wound outers, plus the inevitable lack of lube, certainly were not the best  *eek*...

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: Is there a conversion for plunger clutch
« Reply #14 on: 21.01. 2022 11:39 »
Jules. Here are my thoughts.

 The Rigid and Plunger A Range were always the bike for sidecar use. So, a robust transission was a obvious requirement. The Plunger type scores here with a smooth running duplex chain and a driven centre splined directly to the gearbox input shaft. The "6 Spring" type with the pressed steel centre, used on B,M and Swinging Arm A Ranges, transmits the drive to the clutch adaptor over a very small area, most used centres will have some wear to the splines, and corresponding wear to the very tips of the adaptor splines, allowing slop and further wear.  Considering the higher power output of later models this is a big ask for these two parts. Tightening the adaptor and clutch centre onto the gearbox input  shaft taper can be hit and miss, evidenced by sheared keys and damaged slots.

 The Plunger chainwheel is a pretty tough construction,  supported on rollers, and shielded from ingress of oil by the domed cover which must also have a welcome function of adding further rigidity.  The driving plate  tongues must not extend out further than the outside of the chainwheel fingers, otherwise they will bind against the inner surface of the domed cover. Look for witness marks next time the cover comes off.

 The 6 spring chainwheel has a spot welded band, but in most cases this does not contact the plate carrier fingers over their entire surface to offer support. If it did, there is a further prospect of the driving plate tongues binding against the band in the same way to the Plunger dome cover. So the function here can only to be to keep the oil out. Both clutch types suffer wear and burring of the chainwheel fingers by the narrow edges of the driving plate tongues and these areas are highly loaded.

 A Plunger centre is a finely engineered component, of heavy construction with machine cut splines. Wear to these splines by the driven plate tongues is less than with the softer pressed steel of the centre of the 6 spring.

        Compare this with the 6 Spring pressed steel type, The fingers here are thin, and all must be perfectly aligned to allow the pressure plate and driven plates to slide. A tall order.  As for the spring pins, all need to be vertical compared to the bottom face, replacement types come with varying degrees of perfection, many simply poorly peened over.  A problem here when they come loose and rotate freely is that the spring tension cannot be altered, and the only way to dismantle the clutch is with a hacksaw blade between the plates to part off the offending pin.

 To standardise across the range and with the demise of the sidecar market on the horizon, a decision to  switch  entirely to a cruder and cheaper clutch took away the well loved but expensive Plunger type. The later 4 Spring Triumph Type has several features similar to the Plunger Clutch and again is a robust and favoured type. The spring pins are free in the clutch basket, but have squared ends to prevent rotation, yet allow a degree of float to align with the pressure plate and allow its free movement.

 Swarfy.