Sump Plate / Screen Sealing

[BagONails]

Hi Guys, Noob here. Firstly I joined recently and put up a quick intro. This here is my first actual post so baby steps...

I have searched and found lots of very good info for which I'm very thankful, this is an amazing resource and good on you all for keeping things so friendly and helpful, big thumbs up from me.

So I've been working through some issues on the new bike and after the first test ride I dropped the oil, flushed the oil tank and removed the plate under the sump to clean and check the screens following your good advice. The guy who built the bike up has used silicon RTV instant gasket which is not my favourite thing and I found very tiny traces of loose blue particles in the screen, not enough to be a problem but it's there and I don't like it. I'm thinking I will use Loctite 518 as it is anaerobic and only hardens in the joint and is easier to clean up in the future.

My main question is: has anyone tried putting the screen back without a paper gasket above and below using just a generous coat of loctite in both joints or should I make a couple of new paper gaskets as well? I'm just trying to make the task of removing and cleaning each oil change a bit easier. (I can't get the old ones clean either)

Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Cheers
Ian

[Billybream]

I think you will struggle without a gasket as there is a sandwich arrangement and getting the surfaces clean in preparation to use a liquid sealant will be a challenge, its easy to obtain some gasket sheet and make your own gaskets, try using a smear of grease to all surfaces, worked for me.
I can highly recommend using the alloy sump plate with magnetic drain plug, a vast improvement and help with oil changes.

[Superflash]

One of my recent investments was a hole punch set and a big roll of gasket paper. I have a selection of NOS gaskets to use as templates. Keep them in a water proof envelope. You'll be amazed at just how many gaskets you go through...so is a bit more economical to make your own. One thing you'll learn is that nothing about these bikes is "set and forget "....

[BagONails]

I've got some 0.8mm gasket sheet, I guess I'll make a couple this time and see if I can reuse them next time.

I've seen the alloy sump plates and the magnetic plug looks a good idea. I am considering making myself one as I have a lathe and a mill, looks like a good little project.

I figure once I'm on top of the oil changes, it should not be necessary to clean the screen every time although my searches on the forum have turned up some good examples where extraneous shims etc. have been found on the screen and served as an early warning of impending doom. It was with some trepidation that I opened it up  and was very relieved to find nothing of interest I can assure you.

[Radlan2]

Hi Ian
     I am a big fan of magnets for catching particles, I even have one in the primary case on my Trident. For the beezer I have a powerful numidium bar magnet which I broke in half to give a piece 1/2" long that I glued to the standard sump plate using JB weld. I have put it at the furthest point from the scavenge ball valve, others have said a magnet can interfere with the ball seating I have not had this problem, though I do have a drain bolt fitted incase it wet sumps.
                 Chris

[Greybeard]

  to this great group!

Taking the sump plate on and off is not such a great idea. You risk loosening the studs in the case and that is not a good idea. Try to keep that interaction to a minimum. A modern sump plate with a drain plug is better for draining the sump.
If your bike doesn't dump the whole oil tank into the sump, when starting it, just allow the engine to run slowly and it will pump the oil back into the tank.

[Swarfcut]

 I'm with GB on this. The four original double ended studs are there for a purpose, namely to stay in place when removing the original sump plate. They are notorious for shearing off, and with the engine in the frame extremely awkward to drill out. Many used crankcases have evidence of previous damage and bodges to effect a fix.

 Very easy to substitute a nice tough cap head setscrew as offered with aftermarket alloy plates, but the danger is that each time the plate comes off there is that little bit of extra wear on the soft alloy crankcase threads. Far better to stick with the original concept, even down to making your own longer studs to suit the thicker alloy sump plate along with a nice smooth thread for the retaining nuts.
  Original thread is 1/4 Whit into crankcase, 1/4 BSCy for the nuts. Into the crankcase the holes are blind, more than a few cases damaged by the supplied aftermarket setscrews being a touch too long for the job or the absence of washers, gaskets and filter screen allowing them to bottom and crack the casting. Worth cleaning out to the bottom of these holes, sometimes you can gain a couple more threads when all that old oil, dirt and Red Hermetite comes out. Secure the new studs into the crankcase with Loctite.

 Swarfy.

[RDfella]

Buy a magnetic drain plug, find a steel nut that fits it and braze said nut to base of existing metal cover. Drill appropriate size hole through plate and job's a good'un.

Add - magnetic drain plugs are readily available from bike shops for 'pit bikes' etc.

[BagONails]

Great advice, thanks.  Funny you guys should mention the studs...
3 came out of the crankcase with the nut and one stayed in. Fortunately none snapped off!

It looks like someone has made new nuts in stainless and put 1/4 BSF threads in them.
(1/4 BSF has the same pitch at 26TPI but the thread form is different as I'm sure you would all know)

Luckily I have 1/4 BSF and 1/4 Whit taps and dies so have now made 4 new studs and retapped the nuts which now run freely on the studs.  I then ran 1/4 Whit tap in/out the crankcase cleaning everything out and fitted the new studs with some Loctite blue. 

If I do make a new plate I will certainly be fitting a magnet somewhere too and probably be making a new sets of longer studs to suit.  I like the idea of modifying the existing plate too.  Must see where I can find a magnetic sump plug, motor accessory shops maybe. 

I can see I shall always have a job to do on the bike but then that was the point of buying it really...you could say she's living up to expectations 

[Greybeard]

The first magnetic sump plug I saw was the one for the BMC Mini, required because the hengine was hover the grate box.

Ref longer studs: The 'A' rocker box inspection cover studs are suitable. Also, if you have an aftermarket Alli sump plate fitted those longer nuts from the same place make life easier.

[jhg1958]

Is it worth putting a magnet inside the oil tank?   At least when you change the oil you could see if any steel was being generated by the engine and stop it circulating. Mind you with so much alloy and nonferrous bushes it may not be a fantastic indicator of wear.

John

[muskrat]

G'day Ian.
+1 for GB's rockerbox studs and nuts to use with the thicker alloy sump plate. Both my A's have them.
Cheers

[Degsy]

I just did this job on my A7 Plunger yesterday. 

I found that gasket set I bought had only one sump gasket, fortunately I have some gasket sheet and hole punches so it only took me 5min to make another and properly sandwich the screen and sump plate. 

The previous owner had used loads gasket cement and no gaskets all over my engine. I am replacing all the gaskets as I rebuild and cleaning the old gaskets and cement off and not using cement as I replace gaskets. 

Using both gasket and cement means that the gasket tears on dismantling leaving behind old gasket and cement, unless this is properly cleaned off it will cause problems with the new gasket seal.

Regarding magnets, I am lucky as a previous owner has fitted a sump drain plug but they also added a large disc magnet under the mesh screen and there are those that think that a magnet can tend to hold the ball bearing in the scavenge pipe valve shut and restrict oil flow, in my case with such a large magnet and in a position closer to the pipe it might have been a factor as I did have oil starvation damage of the big end bearings but I found there were other causes for this problem on my engine.  A magnetic sump plug is less likely to cause a problem but I do like the suggestion of a magnet in the oil tank I might try that.

Cheers

Degsy

[berger]

i have just found out a stainless steel gauze for the new ally sump plate that goes on the berglar build does not let the hole in the gauze fit snugly around the sucky pipe, the old bsa one fits perfectly . has any body else found this problem with these parts made by a well known supplier, or does all this fettling i have to do just happen to me? also the holes for the studs had to be eased out a bit for it to fit

[limeyrob]

If its any consolation I built up the bottom end yesterday with new big end bolts and nuts.  Only to find the nuts snagged on the case when it was assembled.  Took it all down again and the nuts are 1/16" too long, again from a well known supplier.  Frustrating.  Looks like they are selling B25 nuts for A10 and they are not the same.