K1 engine

[Greybeard]

Have you worked on one of these engines? What are they like inside? How do they compare with the A engine?

[metalflake11]

Don't know GB.

 They call it a Meguro in this video, and Meguro were eventually taken over by Kawasaki.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YJOIb8iSi_c

Other videos are done by the same bloke. Genuine Mikuni monoblocks and other bits and pieces.

[Greybeard]

From Wikipedia :

In the 1950s Meguro entered racing and built its first twin-cylinder design, the 651 cc (39.7 cu in) T1 "Senior" with a British design-inspired pre-unit parallel twin engine; and later the K-series "Stamina" model, a copy of the BSA A7, one of which Meguro had bought in 1953. Its quality and engineering was superior to the BSA and it was described by Edward Turner, one of Britain's most talented motorcycle designers, as "too good to be true".[citation needed] For the first time, the Japanese motorcycle industry was seen as a threat.
 Its other models designed in collaboration with Kawasaki were entirely of Japanese design.

[Kickaha]

Have you worked on one of these engines? What are they like inside? How do they compare with the A engine?

I know some of the bolt holes for the head line up with an A10

[muskrat]

G'day Kickaha.
That's interesting. My through bolt conversion needs the 4 outer holes moved to where those gasket holes are.
Cheers

[Kickaha]

G'day Kickaha.
That's interesting. My through bolt conversion needs the 4 outer holes moved to where those gasket holes are.
Cheers

Yes, I have thought the same after seeing your pictures a while back, I checked it out after hearing a story about a guy putting a W1 head on an A10 to get an easy twin carb set up, no idea if there was any truth in it but it does look feasible

[muskrat]

G'day Kickaha.
I remember many years ago (before internet) picking a W1 head up at a swap meet. Nearly bought it, till I was told it was a Kwaka. I'll start looking again.
Cheers

[metalflake11]

I'd love to strip one down and see the differences, it's probably very poorly engineered.

There's a reason japanese bikes never caught on.......

Not with me anyway!

[Mick56]

Got a few photos of mine. 1972 W1SA.  Full rebuild September 2020

[Greybeard]

Those pictures are fascinating!

Was the aim of the designer to:
A) Improve on the design of the BSA engine?
B) Produce an engine that looked like the famous and popular British engine to help to sell their bike?

Is it a better engine than the BSA?

You can maybe see why people used to say, and still do, that early Japanese bikes were just copies of UK machines.

[Swarfcut]

 How simple to copy but improve the basic design by adding a ***king big oil pump. Is the crank on ball races? Without an obvious end feed to the crank, how does the the big end get its oil, assuming the journals are still plain?

 GB  I'd say it represents a step in progress of the then Japanese philosophy of copy, improve the design, cut the costs, market worldwide. The engineering of Japanes bikes was never crude in concept, but I agree that some finished parts on Japanese Machines lacked the attention to detail of European products. My Honda 50 engine was an extremely sophisticated design compared to say a Villiers two stroke, but the Honda cam wheel was a simple stamping, as were other parts you would normally expect to be machined. So this cut a cost, then add similar savings together and with volume production on a scale for a world wide market made the products more affordable. The downside was throwaway engineering, best get a new bike as economic repair is impossible, as I found sourcing Yamaha bits in the 1980's.

 Swarfy.

[Triton Thrasher]

How simple to copy but improve the basic design by adding a ***king big oil pump. Is the crank on ball races? Without an obvious end feed to the crank, how does the the big end get its oil, assuming the journals are still plain?

 GB  I'd say it represents a step in progress of the then Japanese philosophy of copy, improve the design, cut the costs, market worldwide. The engineering of Japanes bikes was never crude in concept, but I agree that some finished parts on Japanese Machines lacked the attention to detail of European products. My Honda 50 engine was an extremely sophisticated design compared to say a Villiers two stroke, but the Honda cam wheel was a simple stamping, as were other parts you would normally expect to be machined. So this cut a cost, then add similar savings together and with volume production on a scale for a world wide market made the products more affordable. The downside was throwaway engineering, best get a new bike as economic repair is impossible, as I found sourcing Yamaha bits in the 1980's.

 Swarfy.

Honda throwaway camwheels? 

The Honda’s deadly rival, the BSA Beagle, had cast iron pinions that ground filings off each other, to be fed directly to the oil pump and crankshaft!

[JulianS]

1966 W1 road test which includes some technical details - bearings lubrication etc

[Swarfcut]

TT More likely an example of a sintered casting rather than cast iron. Worked well for Ford Pinto Timing gears and BMC A Series Distributor Mount into the crankcase, not, in retrospect, a good choice for loaded metal to metal contact.
   My point was that by producing parts in the simplest and most cost effective manner  that did the job until the Warranty ran out meant a reduction in production costs.

  The Japanese were the first to use camshafts running directly in Alloy Head Castings for a mass market, but of course this only works with a guaranteed !00% Oil Supply.   In the early years of this innovation a new and expensive cylinder head casting was the only remedy for a seizure. True throwaway engineering at its best.

 Looks as if crank failure on that Kwakker would be very expensive to fix using factory parts.

 Swarfy.

 Ps Thanks Julian.

[edboy]

its hard to believe that no one from bsa tried to copy some of those japanese ideas for the upcoming  a65. i guess they thought cheap and cheerful was what the customer wanted then .