Lights drain battery on sidecar outfit

[chaterlea25]

Hi Owain,
Its all or nothing when converting to 12 volt, the components must match as the 12v armature and field coils have different number windings and wire gauge. 
You can use a 6v dynamo and 12v regulator, but it's a different regulator for a 12v converted dynamo
(When using DVR2 regulators)

Ya I know it costs, but well worth it in my opinion

John

[Triton Thrasher]

The simple bit to answer is yes, your field ohm measurement is ok.

[groily]

but it's a different regulator for a 12v converted dynamo
(When using DVR2 regulators)

John

Am I missing something or just being thick John? As long as the thing has its field coil wired F to E, I think the standard DVR2 works fine on  '12v' parts (provided you have the full kit as you say, not half-'n-half), same as it does for '6v' dynamos asked to run at 12v. Certainly have done for me, anyway - except when folk have specifically demanded enhanced current regulation, when I have fitted DVR4s and rewired the field to suit (because for them you have to).

While it's right, per Swarfy's point above, that you'll get more power at lower rpm with the '12v' bits than you would by simply fitting a 12v regulator on an original 6v instrument (because of the lower cut-in speed), the total power available is in fact strictly limited to 60W on the these upgrade parts. The finer windings are a tad wary of excess current,

At 6v as original, you've got 10 amps to play with as Morris said. At a system voltage of just over 7v when the regulator is doing its stuff, the current involved in producing the continuous-rating limit of 60W is actually a bit less, so there's a safety margin of sorts if 10A is a strict limit. With the fine-wound after-market bits, you've only got 5 amps to play with, and again actually it's rather less at a regulated system voltage of 14+.

The thicker coils on an original dynamo will withstand higher-than-normal loads running at 12v - up to a constant 75-80 Watts in fact - but the purpose-made '12v' bits are more sensitive. The downside is the higher cut-in rpm with the thicker original windings. As ever, there are no free lunches. You 'pays yer money and takes yer choice' basically.

For me, urban or low-speed riding (especially with incandescent bulbs) = fit 12v bits or stay at 6v; for country boys (like me), original parts and a DVR2 set at 12v is fine.

Or - heresy - get a bike with an alternator and enter another world entirely!

Just for my own peace of mind, have discussed use of DVR2s with finer-wound dynamos with ManorMike - and he confirms they will work fine "as well as ay and better than most". With their only weakness being the lack of current limiting.
He also stressed to me again the need to respect the 60W limit of the 12v upgrade parts.

[RDfella]

In the 60's having an alternator was definitely another world - of darkness. I frequently removed alternators and fitted dynamos (commercial and marine). In those days alternators were no more reliable than the (UK) weather and with marine versions costing upwards of £400 .......
Another advantage of dynamos (expecially on marine) was the ability to tune the regulators to charge nearer to 15v, thereby ensuring faster battery charging (don't do it on a sealed battery). Happily, today's alternators are reliable and efficient.

[owain]

Really appreciate the words of wisdom given. It might be worth mentioning that my A10 has a pretty heavy sidecar outfit attached, so top speeds is certainly no more than 60mph with the wind behind me (I haven't bothered attaching the speedo, so can't be sure of this). Either way the engine is under load all of the time and rarely gets to see high RPM. I like to ride day and night, so decent lighting is pretty important and something I haven't been able to achieve on the A10 thus far.

I also made the wiring loom myself, I'm curious whether I've wired it up so that the 24w brake light is on constantly with the brake pedal activating the tail-light  .

I've already got the DVR2 regulator fitted so that avoids the cost of buying a new regulator if I choose to run 12v electrics. I've read the 6v Vs 12v thread and there seems to be a lot of owners recommending an upgrade to the 12v system. I think I'll need to get a dynamo repair kit either way as my armature is a bit knackered as it stands. So if a 12v system would provide a more reliable and brighter lighting for the bike at a lower rpm then it sounds like the way to go...

[chaterlea25]

Hi All,
Bill,
I believe the DVR has built in current limiting for the field current
The 6 and 12 v field coils require different limiting values,
This is what I remember from Manor Mike's posts (or am I talking bollox?)

 
John

[groily]

Not quite certain John, and never bollox! I thought that the standard DVR2 didn't have it, whereas the DVR3s & 4s (which ManorMike has moved into other hands now) do.

The quoted requirement is that the field coil resistance for use with a DVR2 should be north of 2.5 ohms, which I assumed meant it'd work OK with the higher resistance '12v' field coils. Although the DR Ltd literature makes no express mention of suitability - it just explains that the max power of the finer-wound parts is very definitely limited to the 60W it says on the tin - I think it's a fair inference that it'll do the job.  I'm guessing ManorMike would have explicitly stated if the regulator couldn't be used with the 12v bits, as all the tekkie documentation, and FAQs, are very carefully drafted. But  . . . I dunno 100%, can only say I've used them!
The literature goes on to say you can safely get a continuous 80W out of a standard-wound E3L + DVR2. I know I have run my A10, also AMC twins, with continuous loads of 70W+, with heated grips and a 35/35W incandescent bulb, and didn't have any problems. Others have run electronic ignition, even power-hungry Boyer B systems, plus (non-LED) lights, using them. For max power, the standard E3L running with a DVR at 12v is a safe option - IF the higher cut-in speed can be suffered. Which for Owain here, it clearly can't.

RD - I very deliberately didn't say whether that other world of alternators was an inhabitable or uninhabitable one! Different gremlins all of their very own, couldn't agree with you more.
But, as with electronic regulation of our dynamos, modern gizmos that rectify and regulate the output from permanent magnet alternators have made them reliable in my experience. As much as anything because so many possible points of failure in the wiring & switchgear departments can be eliminated.
I have never even thought of using LEDs on my two Lucas alternator bikes (Notruns that do),  because the juice is there, like the water pouring over Niagara Falls: there's nothing to stop it! Nor have I thought to invest in an Alton ortenater for any of my dynamo bikes, although a significant number of folk here in France have done so -  they have been made pretty reliable now.

[owain]

Thanks for consolidating the info Groily. I have to admit that I like the idea of keeping the original 6v dyno but seeing as I ride tend to ride around rural North Wales with no street lights and having seen Dutch's posts comparing 6v and 12v lighting https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=11047. It looks like a sensible option but the cost of replacing everything makes just a 6v reconditioning of the dynamo more appealing for my wallet.

After reading a bit it seems to me that the only real advantage of the 12v systems are a wider choice of bulbs/LEDs (although my bike is negatively earthed which seems to limit the LEDs a bit) and brighter lights...

I guess the overall question is...would a complete 12v system (12v E3L, 12v regulator, 12v battery, 12v bulbs) provide me bright lights that won't disappear after 20 mins of riding around at 30-40mph or could a complete refurbished 6v system provide the same performance and reliability?

[chaterlea25]

Hi Owain,
12 volt systems are more efficient than 6v
Current losses on a 12 volt system are half that of a 6 volt , lower current then means less voltage drop = brighter lights

John

[metalflake11]

I do a lot of miles at night too, a good deal of it on unlit motorways and 'A' roads.

I fitted an LED headlight bulb at the start of this year, (Classic Car LEDs) the improvement is very noticeable indeed. Also, of more interest to you, the drain on the battery is much, much less.

The one I got was not much bigger than a standard H4, and it fitted in a smaller 5 and 3/4 inch headlight......just!

Not cheap, but I'd recommend one to anybody, especially with marginal watts to spare.

[berger]

owain I have 12v on mine and it charges at just under 30mph with v belt drive, maybe you could be ok with 12v with side car gearing on the engine.

[Black Sheep]

I have an A7 converted to 12v and an A10 on its original 6v. For low speed riding and in town, I prefer the A10 as it comes on charge that little bit sooner. Out and about I prefer the A7 as much as anything because it has heated grips - lovely! Both bikes have LED stop/tails and BPF headlights. Both are ok on unlit minor country roads up to 50 mph - fast enough in the circumstances. I always have headlight on in daylight and I don't have any problems with the dynamos not being up to the loads. 

[RogerSB]

Hi Owain,

My A10 still has a 6v dynamo fitted (not reconditioned in my time) and is converted to 12v and like you I also have a sidecar fitted, so in addition to the bike we have a stop light and a front light on the sidecar, plus I’ve fitted indicators with a warning light and a buzzer, so lots to drain the battery.  My battery is a Motobatt AGM and I’ve not had reason to charge it by an external charger all this year so the 6v dynamo seems to be coping ok for my use.

Having said that I don’t ride much in the dark.  In certain circumstances I like to have daylight riding lights on but then I use the pilot light, which being a 1.5W LED is actually brighter than my headlight. As I don’t ride in the dark very often headlight is rarely switched on.

My A10 has a belt drive for the dynamo and a DVR2 regulator fitted, which helps with the 6v dynamo’s charging.  Also I’ve changed every bulb on bike and sidecar, except for the headlight, which is a BPF Quartz Halogen 35/35W. Even the indicators warning light has an LED bulb.  LEDs will keep the amps used down considerably, for example a normal 12v rear/stop light 21W (1.7 Ah) / 5W (0.42Ah) as opposed to an LED rear/stop light 4W (0.33Ah) / 1.25W (0.10Ah).

But - fitting LEDs can be very tricky and can cause all sorts of weird things to happen. They take so little current that it can back-feed through earth wiring and light up bulbs that shouldn’t be lit. It took me ages to eventually get everything working properly. I’m not an expert and others may be able to explain this phenomenon better.

As has already been said only buy quality LEDs from a specialist supplier such as Paul Goff or Classic Car LEDs.

[RoyC]

As said by Roger, but I had no problems at all fitting LEDs to every light.

I also fitted a car battery in the sidecar boot. 

The outfit has had a few changes since this video was made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Gm_IPW8Ek&feature=em-comments   

New rear sidecar light unit.

[metalflake11]

Hello Roger.

They call the lighting of other bulbs that shouldn't be lit 'bleed through' and it can be a right pain in the backside.

On mine, stuff lit up when I put the brake light on.

 The electricity bleeds from the stop light 'filaments' to the tail light 'filaments' in the bulb itself..... It then travels up the wire from the tail light connection to any other bulbs further along at something like half voltage or watts.

My problem was solved simply by fitting better bulbs after a few hours of head scratching.