51 plunger crinkle hub conundrum !!

[jonny web]

Dear all

I am having a head scratching moment and maybe someone out there can shed light upon.

I have a 51 plunger A10 goldenflash, all bog standard. There appears to be a new splined ring on the brake plate and a new rear hub bearing sleeve and nut on the drive side.
The hub is standard but when it is on with the spindle bolted in, the distance between the hub collar (67-6077) and the timing side plunger lug is too small to fit the distance piece 67-6066

my only thought is that the problem lies with the rear hub bearing sleeve  67-6060 which may be too long ?

Shouls the hub be closer to the rear brake drum on assembly than mine is ?

any advice appreciated
best
JW

[duTch]

 I may be wrong but that spacer in pic #4 doesn't quite look right.  ..... I'll have another look when I'm back at th ranch

[Swarfcut]

 JW..  .Is this the hub you need to dismantle, or have you had it apart, reassembled it at it won't fit?  Is it another hub entirely?

 Looks to be a plunger hub, with the two bearing retainers. To my estimation they both need to be further into the hub, the right side one is especially proud and will prevent the shell cover seating. So, could be wrong bearings, or bearings not seated, wrong centre bearing spacer.

 The centre spacer is a simple tube, with two pressed on discs, which have cut outs to pass the hub rivets on assembly. The design is such that the wheel spindle passes through the sprocket drum right through the bearing sleeve and its large retaining nut, then being tightened with its own stepped nut. You need to check you have the right parts and they are made to correct dimensions.

 The brake back plate lip runs in a groove in the sprocket drum, the clearance here should be just a couple of mm at most, and the problem could be in the assembly of the drum/back plate. Perhaps a now unnecessary spacer to remedy some previous bodge. Spurious parts and poorly made pattern parts are all to be expected. The answer to this will be simple, so have a look at internet images of these parts, see how they compare.

 Anyone got one in bits to hand for a bit of measuring?

 Swarfy.

[jonny web]

 Hi swarfy here is my reply

JW..  .Is this the hub you need to dismantle, or have you had it apart, reassembled it at it won't fit?  Is it another hub entirely?

yes this is the hub i would like to use....once it fits !!

 

Looks to be a plunger hub, with the two bearing retainers. To my estimation they both need to be further into the hub, the right side one is especially proud and will prevent the shell cover seating. So, could be wrong bearings, or bearings not seated, wrong centre bearing spacer.

i unscrewed both bearing retainers and loosely refitted to test fit, so no they are not fully home, but that wont affect widths of bearings etc

The centre spacer is a simple tube, with two pressed on discs, which have cut outs to pass the hub rivets on assembly.

yes i have one of those in an empty hub i have, cant use that hub as the rivets are v loose

The design is such that the wheel spindle passes through the sprocket drum right through the bearing sleeve and its large retaining nut, then being tightened with its own stepped nut. You need to check you have the right parts and they are made to correct dimensions.

 The brake back plate lip runs in a groove in the sprocket drum, the clearance here should be just a couple of mm at most, and the problem could be in the assembly of the drum/back plate. Perhaps a now unnecessary spacer to remedy some previous bodge. Spurious parts and poorly made pattern parts are all to be expected. The answer to this will be simple, so have a look at internet images of these parts, see how they compare.

yes i will dismantle brake drum and spindle stub on that side, it seems to be protruding a bit too far through the spines on the brake drum ?

 

Anyone got one in bits to hand for a bit of measuring?[

 Swarfy.

[jonny web]

 hi there

after the last batch of comments, i thought about the brake drum and took it off, that is i removed the rear drum bearing sleeve 67-6060 from the brake drum and built the whole spindle and hab back together, and hey presto it fit !

but as you can see from the pictures, the space between the back of the brake plate, and the step on the bearing sleeve is somewhat narrower than the width of the bearing that should fill the gap. About 5mm or so

as soon as the sleeve is back on, everything is shifted towards the timing side again and doesn t fit

My thought is; were there different rear sprockets ?
Do i have a later one?
are there different bearing widths ?


Can anyone help ?

cheers
best
JW

[Swarfcut]

Yes, the drum sprockets for the plunger models have the same basic form differing only in the number of teeth. The later S/A version looks similar, but has a centre bearing the same size as the wheel bearings. The Plunger drum bearing is different, with a  slightly larger O.D. Your pictures are too close to distinguish which drum you have, it may actually be a S/A drum.

 Swarfy.

[duTch]

 Looking at it again, it may just be that the dust-cover is not fitted, but that R/S spacer (67-6077) protrudes further than I recall.....can you take it out to compare ?

 

Yes, the drum sprockets for the plunger models have the same basic form differing only in the number of teeth. The later S/A version looks similar, but has a centre bearing the same size as the wheel bearings. The Plunger drum bearing is different, with a  slightly larger O.D. Your pictures are too close to distinguish which drum you have, it may actually be a S/A drum.

 It looks like the correct chainwheel as the hole for the spacer is bigger (~2" x 1/4" section if I recall) than the S/A ones which has a different spacer profile too...

[berger]

I have not been to the pub, going tmow and I don't know anything about plungers apart from I was given a plungy crinkle hub and they are slightly different to swing arm crinkle hubs. BUT I do know I once got a stub axle [ bearing sleeve in the book] to put in my swing arm single sided brake drum and it turned out to be for an A65 and was about half an inch longer , have you got the correct stub axle [bearing sleeve] or am I barking up the wrong tree again. the 1954/55 single sided rear brake drum bearing sleeve[ stub axle] on a plunger is 67-6060 and on a 1954/55 swing arm is 67-6030 you might have a mish mash of bits

[duTch]

 bergs- I'm giving you a free license to go to the pub now or do as I  do and bring it to me... ....they are completely different... as in the Plungo one goes right through,  but the S/A one threads into the stubbie bit... get into it- I  have but don't let me be a influence

[Swarfcut]

duTch... Looks to be the right drum, the knock in collar  67 6078 which covers the ball race is missing.  On the other side of the bearing there should just be be a a steel grease retaining circular shim and the bearing circlip.

bergs...This could be an answer, but until we get some measurements for comparison this could run and run.

 Swarfy.

[jonny web]

The Plunger drum bearing is different, with a  slightly larger O.D.

I think this must be the right drum as the bearing in it has a larger OD than the two in the crinkle hub

best
JW

[jonny web]

 Looking at it again, it may just be that the dust-cover is not fitted, but that R/S spacer (67-6077) protrudes further than I recall.....can you take it out to compare ?

yes here it is with length measured

[jonny web]

have you got the correct stub axle [bearing sleeve] or am I barking up the wrong tree again. the 1954/55 single sided rear brake drum bearing sleeve[ stub axle] on a plunger is 67-6060 and on a 1954/55 swing arm is 67-6030 you might have a mish mash of bits

Hi Berger, yes this looks like the right one

[jonny web]

the knock in collar  67 6078 which covers the ball race is missing.  On the other side of the bearing there should just be be a a steel grease retaining circular shim and the bearing circlip.

Swarfy, the hub collar appears to be pressed home in the brake plate itself, and the shim and circlip on the other side were removed by me but dont effect the spacing of any bearings or spacers
best
JW

[duTch]

 Ok JDub- the 67-6077 looks the part and was thinking 11/16", but 17mm is close enough  ...but the 67-6078 should be ( is normally) just a separate square section ring, I think 2" OD x 1/4" section. That bit on your brake plate doesn't seem right, but *may* do the job...if it's the right profile