Elec-trick-al

[Worty]

Thanks again all, apologies in advance if I don't address your comments directly.

Re Trevinoz - I got out the old Westco battery today to see if it had any charge left in it - it did??!!  Charged it up (which it wouldn't do before) and then tested a bulb across it.  Bulb was very dim at first then, after about 10 seconds, came on brightly.  Apart from the charging/ammeter issue, this is exactly what's happening with the Westco on the bike.  My guess is the Westcos are s**t and I need to try another (decent) battery.  Incidentally, the lead/acid I had before these dumped battery acid over my r/h silencer and stripped the chrome from it - hence going for sealed items.  Will check connections between the battery and ammeter (which is new), but a new battery may be in order?  One other thing, is it possible for the dynamo to be over charging the battery?

Re Mike B - I'm spending more on cider than bits for the bike at the moment (hic)!  I'll try what you said - thanks. Bike is +ive earth and D/F are definitely the right way round.

Re Muskrat - What make are the AGMs you are using?  Also, is 4A enough.  I was advised to go with 13A although, from memory, this is more critical when on 6v rather than 12v.

Re Bsareg - don't know much about flashing the dynamo.  However, I don't have a flat battery nor burnt wires.

So, if I have a duff battery that works intermittently, would this cause the problems I'm having?  Could it be a faulty regulator?  Answers on a postcard please!

..... and thanks again for all the time you've put into this!!

[mikeb]

battery AH - 6v cyclons are 5Ah, two in parrellel = 10Ah. plenty unless you fit an electric leg.

flashing a dynamo is easy and has a bit of mad scientist fun quality to it. there's heaps of threads about it - here's one at random: https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=6365.msg43899#msg43899. it is worth a thought if the bike has been off the road for a while.

is it possible for the dynamo to be over charging the battery?

only if your regulator is kaput - that's what they do...

...

Could it be a faulty regulator

a DVR2, right? well everything can break and i don't know how they behave when they do. they get good press around here and I've fitted two happily. Hence maybe take it (and E3L) out of circuit until all else is stable, flash the E3L and then if reintroducing the reg causes trouble then that's the culprit. But it would be low down on my list.

[duTch]

 

  Also, is 4A enough. 

 In my uneducated opinion, it's enough for test purpose and a bit more....the more Ah there is available is just like more water in the tank for when when it doesn't rain for a while.... ..(ok I guess some don't understand that... ; just think conserve what you have...)

[Worty]

Cheers again folks, leave it with me and I'll get back to you with any more news - now where's that cider.

[Worty]

Kept off the cider long enough to have a fiddle.  Disconnected regulator completely (all wires).  Turned lights on (they come on!) - ammeter shows discharge as you'd expect.  Started bike, obviously nothing showing on ammeter.  Revved engine a few times - LIGHTS GO OUT.  Turn engine off, wait about 15 seconds and lights come back on.  Surely this has to be a duff battery that's failing under vibration then, somehow, recovering to bring the lights back on?  I've ordered another battery to see if that behaves itself.  If not, I'm going to have to strip the loom back and investigate wire by wire.

What do you reckon?

[mikeb]

What do you reckon?

either battery or connections. what else is there in the circuit?
i reckon a new battery would cost less than the amount of cider this job is costing you. so get a new battery. and even tho others have good luck with fancy agms etc why not try a cyclon?

btw top marks for persistence. apparently pain makes us stronger 

[Worty]

Cheers Mike, always determined to get to the bottom of a problem - although the result is that I'm blind drunk most of the time!

Both of the Westco AGMs have been unreliable so no more of them for me.

I'm intrigued to see what the new battery will do.  It's a bit of an experiment (not too expensive, I might add) but I want to check out a couple of things before going for the Cyclons.

Thanks for all your help and support.

[duTch]

 Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that some lighting/charging circuits will function with the battery bypassed (?),  but I expect an electronic reg may need some power to excite it. ..is that possible/worth a try?

[groily]

Not wrong Dutch.
The charging side and lights should work with the engine runnning above dynamo cut-in speed with the battery disconnected/missing. The regulator doesn't need any more excitement than that!
Nothing will show on the ammeter, but the lights should come on and stay bright as the dynamo spins faster and the regulator regulates. A DVR2 should work with a flat battery.
If nothing happens (or weird things) then either the regulator is damaged or the wiring is faulty.

[Worty]

Ok, groily has it for me.

My lights do work straight from the dynamo when I have this problem and, yes, nothing shows on the ammeter.  This leads me to believe the battery gives up under charge and the bike behaves as if there is no battery - lights being controlled via the regulator.  The really odd thing about this problem was that the battery 'reactivates' after a period of between 5 and 20 seconds and illuminates the lights.  Looks like the DVR2 is behaving as it should and the wiring is correct - it was the intermittent fault I've had with both Westcos that put a spanner in the works.
I've got a new battery coming and will disconnect the regulator as before.  Starting and revving the bike with the new battery attached should see the lights come on (when switched on, of course) and stay on.  If they go out under revving it must either be wiring or another dodgy battery (I don't want to put the new battery under charge until I'm sure it'll support the electrics first). 
I suppose two things threw me on this issue.  The first were the intermittent faults on both batteries and the second was not understanding why the ammeter stopped showing charge/discharge when, later on, the battery appeared to be behaving normally.
Will update when the new battery is in place.
If this is the answer, then thanks to everyone for taking me through the journey!!! It's been bugging me for ages.

[Worty]

Ok, it looks like the battery!!  Put new item on today, disconnected regulator, lights come on straight away.  Fire bike up and rev, lights stay on.  Reconnect regulator, bike charges at normal rate (just above the ammeter centre) - rev and all stays on.

Tip: Don't buy a Westco or cheap lead acid - go for better quality and have fewer problems.

Cheers all - I'm madly drunk now - cider!

[mikeb]

i didn't know batteries could do such weird thing. well done on solving it - not straightforward at all.

cider well deserved! 

[Angus]

I nearly jumped in earlier. I wanted to check out the Norton before buying proper batteries, so got 2 of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Powersonic-12v-6v-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Rechargeable-Battery-Leisure-Alarm-Volt/221844097101?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=520727784378&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 and althought still only doing little trips all with lights on they appear to be holding up well.

[Worty]

Cheers Mike

For me, always blame the battery unless you have symptoms directly attributable to something else - I have never come across such oddities with any battery.  If you can buy, or keep, a battery you know is reliable somewhere in your garage, this will help diagnose the problem quickly without having to spend so much on cider (or batteries).

Should this (cheaper item) fail, I'll invest in Cyclons.  By the way, the cheapo battery was a 6v 8Ah sealed AGM unit probably used more in large electrical toys, alarm system backups, etc.  I was wary of trying these but the write up on this unit said it was ok for cyclical charging/motorcycles.  It only cost £14 so not much risk.  I'll bet you it lasts a damn sight longer than my £33 Westcos.  If it does prove to be durable, I'll happily put in a link to the merchant.  Incidentally, 8Ah seems ample to operate the electrics.

[Worty]

Angus, mine were Powersonic too, only the 6v version.