BSA Super rocket

[Fatboy]

I have made the cardinal sin? of buying not 1, but 3 bsa,s with NO papers over the past four years. They have been in the shed/workshop awaiting my pension day for rebuilding. I wanted to sell one to finance the rebuild and sold the Super Rocket ( 1960   engine No DA19R xxxxx ) It was returned with the message that it was not a " proper " Super Rocket because the frame FA7 12xxx was not a " Super Rocket frame " as it had left the factory with a Flash engine in it ( in 1959,  informed by the VMCC )so it had lost it's real value according to the buyer. He says that the bike should never have been advertised as a Super Rocket. Could someone please clarify what is going on. I will be in the process of getting it dated by the BSAOC once I can clarify WAZZZZUP.

[Topdad]

All sorts of things happened to our bikes once they left the factory. I'm no expert but I thought that all A10'S except the   RGS frame numbers commenced  A7 XXXX and so don't think it could be the frame only that caused the buyer to spit out his dummy . How does the bike 's model name appear on the log book does it say golden flash or super rocket . Also have other things been changed for instance brakes , be far easier to get an angle on it by posting a picture along with an intro re how you decided on BSA'S etc.
I am interested on hearing if it did have a standard flash engine fitted as new ,if it did it ain't a Super rocket. cheers Bob

[muskrat]

G'day Fatboy,  .
According to my book (Bacon) all (A7 and A10) 1959 frame #'s were FA7-8522 and up. 1960 were GA7-101 and up. 1959 SR's had engine #'s CA10R-8193 ^ and 1960 DA10R-101 ^  .
Cheers

[Fatboy]

Thanx for the replies, the problem seems that in the UK the bikes are judged by the frames. Growing up in South Africa ( born in Bristol ) when I rode BSA's in the 60's if the bike had a A10RR engine in it it was a Road Rocket, if it was DA10R it was a Super Rocket, plain old A10 was a flash with a cast iron head. We registered the bike in the log book as what the engine was. The frame basically had nothing to do with it besides putting the number on it. As was pointed out elsewhere on the forum in the early days of being an apprentice ( and skint ) you fitted whatever you could lay your hands on to get the bike going for work and down to the beachfront roadhouse. Anyway enough about that, what I need to establish is WHAT to call my bike. Is it a Super Rocket in a Flash frame or a Rocket look alike. As I said before according to the VMCC, this bike's frame number is linked to a BSA Flash when it left the factory in 1959. Not being computer literate I will ask my son how to post some photos of the bike this weekend. This whole trip is bugging me, to put it mildly.

[RichardL]

In terms of selling it, it seems to me that the best thing would be to just list the frame and engine numbers, show some photos and let the would-be buyer decide for himself what he wants to call it. (Of course, if you had a certifiable RGS, you would want to name it). As far as you're concerned, the buyer can name the bike Rumpelstiltskin if he wants.

Richard L.

 

[Beezageezauk]

Hi Fatboy,

The sure way to answer your question would be to apply to the librarian of the BSA Owners Club for a "Dating Certificate"  He will check the factory dispatch records and give you the precise model, colour, the date it left the factory and the name of the dealer it was sent to.  This information will be set out on a nice certificate and you don't even need to be a member to get it.

Check out the www.bsaownersclub.co.uk for full information.

Beezageezauk.

[Fatboy]

Once again thanx for the replies, I will write to the BSAOC ( I am a member ) tomorrow and see what they say. I will also inform you guys WAZZZZUP. Cheers for now.

[KiwiGF]

I've been reliably told that the BSA despatch records are ordered in engine number, so it's relatively easy to find out from the books what frame belongs to an engine, but not engine number to a frame. However, depending on whose looking you may not get told what the "other" (matching) number is .....if you provide a mis matched pair of numbers.

If Super Rockets have standard GF frames (they do don't they?) then I guess for some the real value will be in the engine and frame numbers both being originally despatched in Super Rockets and also preferably "matched".....for others the value may just be in the engine spec....e.g the alloy head

[beezermacc]

If you want to short-cut the process you can visit the VMCC library in Burton on Trent which is where the official despatch ledgers are kept. I've been there a couple of times and it is a relatively easy task to find your bike frame number in the despatch book. You will see which engine was fitted. Conversely you can find the engine number and see which frame it left with. I don't think you have to be a member of the VMCC to visit but best to check first. On the wider issue of sales descriptions I think there are probably mistakes on both sides. A seller, advertising a bike as a specific model, should say whether it is genuine or a reincarnation ( as most RGS's are); similarly the buyer should ask the appropriate questions before making the purchase if it's that important to him. If somebody builds a 'Super Rocket' using a Golden Flash frame etc and puts the necessary Super Rocket bits on it to make it into a Super Rocket can it be described as a Super Rocket or should it be described as a Super Rocket 'copy'? In my opinion the word 'copy' or lookalike' must be used as there is a difference in value to many would-be purchasers who could claim they were being deceived, but, back to my original point - If it's that important they should ask first.

[Topdad]

Basic rule of contract , " caveat empor "  let the buyer beware . But sellers still need to demonstrate that they are not misleading people on purpose.

[trevinoz]

Sometimes I think that we worry too much about numbers. Even if they are the ones which were on the bike when it left the factory, all it proves that the drive side crankcase is original to the frame. (Maybe)

[KiwiGF]

Absolutely true Trevor, for example the right hand case of my "matched numbers" bike is not matched to the left, but I do have the correct but badly repaired/welded right side case on the shelf should anyone be crazy enough to want it, if and when I have to sell the bike.

Are Super Rockets that much quicker than a GF with 356 cam? Or is that not the point!

[muskrat]

I really don't care about #'s. My '51 has a '53 frame, the cafe is a 650 A7SS. But like KiwiGF I have the originals. Correct #'s might add 10%, totally original would add another 20%, so an A10SR might get $10K add another $3K for correct #'s and originality.
Cheers

[bikerbob]

I agree some people do get hung up on numbers. The main problem here is these bikes do not have any paperwork, so if you are going to use them on the road in the UK then they will have to be re-registered and will probably end up with an age related number.  To get that you will have to get a dating certificate which as others have said will tell you what particular model it is.  The frame number is the deciding factor as far as the DVLA and the BSA owners club is concerned the engine is of secondary importance, nice if they are from the same model but the engine does not determine what goes on the registration document as the model type.

[duTch]

 If all three bikes came from the same source when you bought them, maybe at some time they've been switched around to keep 'em running..?

 If you're going to have one dated, why not have the other two checked out at the same time; it may shed some light?

 Away from yours, I could almost call my Plunger a Super Rocket too, as it has a 67-1126 head, 357 cam Big fin barrels, LJ crank and a 389 monobloc....only the cases are Plunger- stamped 23.12.52. Frame ZA7 19199 seems to align with ~'53

 I sometimes consider having them despatch checked, but only for curiousity, I bought everything separate but mostly locally, but I don't expect anything to match. I just want something I can ride.......