Author Topic: A10GF timing side breather pipe (hole)  (Read 558 times)

Offline MalcolmD

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A10GF timing side breather pipe (hole)
« on: 19.06. 2022 19:59 »
I'm just getting to know my '58 S/A Golden Flash.

It seems to leak oil from almost every joint, and after 100 miles everything behind the cylinders to the rear wheel has a fair coating  *sad2* (even after cleaning and fitting new timing and primary chain gaskets)

I suspect the breather is either miss-timed, or the cork "seal" is compressed, or something I don't understand is happening!!!....

However, I have another question about breather pipes (or holes)... (and the BSA workshop manuals seem to skip over this topic).

I see from other posts that pipes were fitted to the plunger bikes to the hole under the camshaft bearing on the drive side.

1st question: I am not sure how this (drive side) hole is connected to the rotating breather valve?? at the timing end of the cam?
2nd question: Feeling under the inner timing case, I can feel another (similar) hole under the camshaft, and looking inside the outer timing case it looks like this hold connects to the rotating breather valve. This hole is never referenced, is this an "inlet" or another breather exhaust? if not what's it for...

So, basically a bit of in-depth discussion of the breather mechanism would be appreciated, please! (The Panther is so much simpler  *smile*)

M
Retired Engineer:
BSA A10 GOLDEN FLASH '58
PANTHER M100 & MONZA '55
URAL M66 '74 (Owned since new)
MOTO GUZZI NORGE GT8V '2012
STEAM YACHT....and a lot of stuff to 😕

Offline RDfella

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Re: A10GF timing side breather pipe (hole)
« Reply #1 on: 19.06. 2022 21:51 »
Quote
I can feel another (similar) hole under the camshaft, and looking inside the outer timing case it looks like this hold connects to the rotating breather valve.
That's the breather hole, above the gearbox sprocket.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline MalcolmD

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Re: A10GF timing side breather pipe (hole)
« Reply #2 on: 19.06. 2022 22:10 »
Yes I know about the one by the gbox sprocket, but there's another one on the timing side that I am asking about 🙂
Retired Engineer:
BSA A10 GOLDEN FLASH '58
PANTHER M100 & MONZA '55
URAL M66 '74 (Owned since new)
MOTO GUZZI NORGE GT8V '2012
STEAM YACHT....and a lot of stuff to 😕

Offline muskrat

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Re: A10GF timing side breather pipe (hole)
« Reply #3 on: 19.06. 2022 22:20 »
G'day Mal.
The hole your looking at should be blanked off. It's the drilling for the breather.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
Australia
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Offline MalcolmD

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Re: A10GF timing side breather pipe (hole)
« Reply #4 on: 19.06. 2022 22:26 »
Oh, okay Muskrat that makes sense... I'll look a bit harder...

Should it be entirely filled with a plug?

Perhaps if it's missing that is the reason the breathing is not working 🙂
Retired Engineer:
BSA A10 GOLDEN FLASH '58
PANTHER M100 & MONZA '55
URAL M66 '74 (Owned since new)
MOTO GUZZI NORGE GT8V '2012
STEAM YACHT....and a lot of stuff to 😕

Offline Worty

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Re: A10GF timing side breather pipe (hole)
« Reply #5 on: 20.06. 2022 13:20 »
Heh, the GF pumps oil from everywhere on mine.  Key areas are feed and return pipe unions at oil tank end, primary cover through one of the screw holes and the filler cap, fork oil seal (again), breather near gearbox sprocket, sump plate and a bit from the gearbox too.  Have considered changing the crankcases to a large steel colander thinking it'll hold the oil better. :!
Current Bikes😎
Kwaka W650
'61 Flash

Past Bikes👍
'49 B31
'59 BMW R60
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Offline MalcolmD

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Re: A10GF timing side breather pipe (hole)
« Reply #6 on: 20.06. 2022 15:44 »
 *smile*
Retired Engineer:
BSA A10 GOLDEN FLASH '58
PANTHER M100 & MONZA '55
URAL M66 '74 (Owned since new)
MOTO GUZZI NORGE GT8V '2012
STEAM YACHT....and a lot of stuff to 😕

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: A10GF timing side breather pipe (hole)
« Reply #7 on: 21.06. 2022 11:57 »
 Bergs. Best saved until you are back from the pub.


    MalcD.. The breather outlet is the hole above the gearbox sprocket. Early rigid and plunger engines have a neat pipe running down to the sump plate, from which condensed oil mist or neat oil,  (depending on how lucky you are) will drip. Later plunger bikes have a short tube, directing the mist onto the top of the chain, as a crude chain oiler.

 S/A bikes just have a hole, so here its an oily mess, but a well preserved mudguard.

 How does it work?  Well, along the lines of GB's carb gnomes, here goes. In the crankcase the  breather gnomes are relaxing, each one with an empty bucket. When the engine starts, pistons descend, the oil vapour in the crankcase is first compressed, and condenses. The gnomes catch this in their buckets, and in a neat line make their way to the breather bush. However as the pistons rise, the pressure in the crankcase is reduced, sucking the line of gnomes back, and they spill their oil buckets, just leaving a thin film in the bottom of each bucket. The majority of the oil then returns to the sump, and is scavenged to the oil tank, by the so called Scavenger Gnomes of the Deep, who have altogether bigger buckets.

 Now the breather gnomes are determined fellows, and make the trek to the breather bush again, but now the buckets contain very little oil, just oil vapour and a lot of air. As the breather bush rotates, each gnome hangs on tightly with one hand and tips whatever is in the bucket into the bush, just as the exit holes align. There you are, oil vapour comes out of the breather in time with the rise and fall of the pistons. Well it does most of the time, when the engine speed is at normal town traffic speeds. At high revs those gnomes just can't bucket fast enough, and a more sophisticated approach is needed as on modern machinery. Plenty about alternatives elsewhere within the Forum.

  So, depending on how many gnomes you have, and how big the buckets are, you may get little or no oil or plenty from the breather. All the more remarkable as they do this in the dark.

 The whole system depends on a good cork washer seal between the breather bush and the camshaft drive gear. The machining of breather bushes and timing inner castings changed over the years, make sure holes in the bush align fully with the  breather drilling in the inner timing cover. Many mix'n match parts don't, so use the best combo if you have a choice.  The inner cover external drilling should be blanked off in production. The only link from the crankcase to atmosphere is via the breather exit.

 Swarfy.

Offline Worty

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Re: A10GF timing side breather pipe (hole)
« Reply #8 on: 21.06. 2022 12:11 »
Problem is, Swarfy, I don't have gnomes but bloody great gorillas lugging bathtubs. *eek* *eek* *rant* *rant*
Current Bikes😎
Kwaka W650
'61 Flash

Past Bikes👍
'49 B31
'59 BMW R60
Yam FS1-E, YB100, RS100, RD200DX,250DX,350B, XS750
MZ250

Offline MalcolmD

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Re: A10GF timing side breather pipe (hole)
« Reply #9 on: 21.06. 2022 16:29 »
Thanks for all this....it implies that there is a "pipe" or port cast into the crankcase that leads from the "breather bush/valve" to the hole/pipe/port over by the gearbox sprocket. Is this true?
Retired Engineer:
BSA A10 GOLDEN FLASH '58
PANTHER M100 & MONZA '55
URAL M66 '74 (Owned since new)
MOTO GUZZI NORGE GT8V '2012
STEAM YACHT....and a lot of stuff to 😕

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: A10GF timing side breather pipe (hole)
« Reply #10 on: 21.06. 2022 16:42 »
 Yes indeed. The crankcase halves have a drilling which connects from one side of the engine to the other. It runs within the cast web above the camshaft. Easy to check for blockage. With the inner timing cover removed there is ready access and there should be free flow of air thro' from one side to the other. The breather bush is driven by a peg on the cam gear. With the correct parts and a good cork washer it generally works fine. The cork controls camshaft end float, too thick and everything binds up, too thin and the breather won't work. Alternative thickness washers used to be available, these days get a thick one and rub down on abrasive paper for a nice trial and error  snug fit,

 Swarfy.

Offline MalcolmD

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Re: A10GF timing side breather pipe (hole)
« Reply #11 on: 21.06. 2022 16:44 »
Perfect, your work is done dear Forum...all my questions answered....thank you 🙂😁😁🙂
Retired Engineer:
BSA A10 GOLDEN FLASH '58
PANTHER M100 & MONZA '55
URAL M66 '74 (Owned since new)
MOTO GUZZI NORGE GT8V '2012
STEAM YACHT....and a lot of stuff to 😕