Oil tank from India, good idea?

[Sluggo]

I really liked Trevs response, sewed it up nicely.   As to my frequnet response on this topic here & elsewhere,,As a collector of all kinds of obscure and vintage machines I for one am pretty darn happy about many parts previously made out of "Un-ob-tain-ium".  I have a number of projects that I had long since given up on the idea I would ever find correct tanks, fenders or other tin ware.

Its amazing to me so many obscure parts are now being made, no rational person with a sense of business acumen would be making C11 or C12 body work, or some of the Matchless or AJS parts for bikes the average enthusiast never heard of.

I know some over in India involved in manufacturing, as well as China, Taiwan and other locales, I know a lot about US and European manufacturers as well, There is far more lucrative ways to make money so I am just happy such parts are being made.

The reality is that MOST parts being made in India are marketed brokered and sold by 3rd parties who have the resources to do so.  Logistics like banking, shipping and customs.  The guys making the parts are not involved in that.  Rarely do they ever hear from the consumer or end user and have no idea of the problems.
99% of them would be happy to correct the problems and take pride in their work.  Often they are working from crude drawings, or poor quality pictures and can only guess or estimate. 

Sometimes its a cultural issue about communication as well.   I have personally ordered and used a variety of parts made in India and they ranged from excellent to poor quality.   But much the same can be said of parts made at my wifes machine shop here in Oregon USA.

So, it used to be said about English made parts for Sports cars and motorbikes,,, "Some fettling required" and I used to try to educate customers in my shop that its rare that any part just fits right out of the package.  So its ironic and a bit racist in my opinion that people will idolize a UK made part yet criticise a Indian or Asian made part.

I had a friend in India try to work with the Norton community and its  well read thread on In-Accessible Norton about Singh Precisions,, I advised him it was foolish and he eventually refocused on making custom alloy body work for HD sportsters and Asian bikes instead. 

Here is his facebook page and look at his work, See: https://www.facebook.com/precisions.singh/

Here is the long running and caustic at times thread on In-accessable,
See: https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/handmade-tanks-singh-precisions.17369/

IMHO,, I think the original poster was a Pakistani Troll, He neither participated much before or after that thread.  If you think thats odd, then research the history of India-Pakistan to better understand.

I DO have the original Tank that was made free of charge for this guy and I would be happy to let anyone examine it or take it for  a test.  (As well as other products made by this guy)  Since Sobby was not familiar with Nortons and did not have a sample,, There WAS a problem with the petcocks location,, but easily corrected.

Unlike other vendors He offers a lifetime guarantee,,  He also points out, if there IS a problem he will work with you to correct it.
There was a similar thread on a HD sportster forum but it while caustic at times, turned out much better and the OP was VERY happy!

See: http://xlforum.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-1864036.html

[BSA_54A10]

And we are getting a bit off track the reason we are buying the parts from metalworkers in India is because we are too cheap to buy them from a sheet metal worker in our home countries.
We used to have a dozen skilled craftsman down here who had the skills & knowledge to make perfectly fitting reproduction parts for just about anything.
However just about all of them have shut up shop or gone over to making custom HD parts because we as a group were too cheap to pay them a reasonable price for skilled trades work.

A friend was getting wiring looms made in China and the factory owner found it strange that he was the only customer who did not demand that the price droped with every repeat order.
The other thing he could not understand was why a rich country like Australia want him to make so much garbage that they would not use in China.

[Rex]

So, it used to be said about English made parts for Sports cars and motorbikes,,, "Some fettling required" and I used to try to educate customers in my shop that its rare that any part just fits right out of the package.  So its ironic and a bit racist in my opinion that people will idolize a UK made part yet criticise a Indian or Asian made part.
See: http://xlforum.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-1864036.html

You must have been fitting pattern parts too then if they didn't fit "right out of the package". The whole concept of searching out NoS parts is that they're guaranteed to fit.
Personally I don't see why "skin colour" or "racist" comments come into it. Clearly the Indian/Pakistani workshops do thier best, generally speaking, but sometimes that's not good enough.
I bought a Lucas headlamp shell for an Empire Star a while back, quite nice, apart from one mounting at the three oclock position and the opposite one at about ten oclock. Stevie Wonder could see that it was a reject.

Third World copy/counterfeit parts are a big problem for everyone from medical instrument supplies to labelled drugs, and from general engineering supplies to Boeing parts. Hardly racist in any shape of form to point out that much of the stuff from the back street workshops over there is sub-standard and the buyer should beware.
{Love the pics of the bumper stickers though...can we mention the Pontiac Phoenix, the Fiero or the Olds Delta 88 Diesel?}

[muskrat]

G'day fellas.
So all the parts that I've bought from India/China/Taiwan could have been made in England? They sure needed "feteling".
I agree Trevor. We all want it now and as cheap as possible. I needed to get my CB1100F forks re-chromed at a cost of $400. I found a set of new tubes for $220 landed from Hong Kong. Yep, needed about of 4 hours (each) to get them fit.
Back on subject.
I was recently given a BSA oil tank that was identical to my plungers but had different mounts. Three threaded lugs instead of the two ears. Free to good home plus post.
Cheers

[Sluggo]

Rex, 2 salient points here, perhaps i was not clear.

READ those links to other forums and the discussions, MANY of the comments on those forums were overtly racist and judgemental, Some suggested my friend in India engaged in slave labor or child abuse and many mentions of dirt floor sweat shops.   While I have travelled much of the world and there are many examples of that worldwide, to say such a thing directed at a country or vendor who comes onto a forum and tries to interact is tremendously disrespectful.   Serving in the Military overseas, Americans could and often behaved very badly known as "ugly americans" its always embarrassed me, But to see such comments lobbed with aplomb makes me very embarrassed and angry regardless of the origin of the speaker or poster.  Its flat out unacceptable.

I am well aware of counterfeit parts and products, Working in the past in Aerospace, I am acutely aware of it. My neighbor a mile down the road is from Yorkshire and runs a company manufacturing parts for Boeing and other contracts.  We have discussed this topic widely from machine tools, paint guns and tech across the board.  I did process engineering, development and assy for some innovative CAD/CAM machine roll forming manufacturing for structural building and construction.  (Studmeister) and at one point we got an order from a Asian customer and I, and the other 3 staff told the company owner *IF* he chose to move forward with the much needed order ($135,000 order) That we could expect to be out of business in under 2 years as it was a certainty that it would be reverse engineered and henceforth sold at Harbor Freight stores.

As to NOS,, 2 divergent points.  #1) That ship has largely sailed and except for the occasional M20 & M21 flat head military models NOS parts for preunit BSAs has largely disappeared many years ago, Always an outlier hoarder with a few treasures surfacing,, but largely, No longer availible.  #2) NOS parts SHOULD generally fit, but not always.  After all, they are made on the OEM tooling and fixtures by the original craftsmen in most cases, And early BSA premium models did have a pretty good quality to them.  However they were manufactured on worn out machinery in deplorable working conditions.  Factor in wildly fluctuating quality control and parts shortages that meant some parts that SHOULD be scrapped or fall out for QC meant subpar parts were supplied.

Some parts were also outsourced or under contract by other manufacturers.  Most BUILT to a price, so there is a long list of defective components over the years, Service bulletins and dealer communications document this.  Warranty claims were a hot potato as well, and subject to much debate between owners-dealers-distributors and the factory.

I have told the extended version many times, and it was cleverly written up in a article in "Classic Bike" called "Testing times" of a factory tester at AMC and he discussed many examples but the funniest one was the Norton-prestolite starter story.
These starters were considered substandard by Harley for Sportsters so Prestolite sold them to AMC/Norton under the idea a measly Norton twin would do just fine with these weak starters.  (not manly enough for a HD) The article details how the board continued to approve their install despite the testor telling them they were defective and why.  Modern Nortons have starter issues as well and are a Harley application as well as Yanmar diesel engines and Kubota farm tractors. (History repeating itself)  Yet Norton nutters persist in sourcing their starter parts and upgrades from British bike vendors when they COULD source the parts at a fraction of the cost from a Independant HD dealer or your local lawn and garden implement supply store.

I have seen a large cross section of NOS parts from dealer and distributor stock (Warehouses full) and I can tell you some NOS is excellent, and in some cases repops are superior when it comes to British bike vintage parts.  (manufacturing has progressed in the last 50 years)

We have a local guy in our Norton club, He is retired now but his career was Supply chain logistics mgmt with a focus on QC.  Most of this in China and SE Asia for some very well known worldwide products.  We had a quorum of a bunch of guys who all had a background in tool & die and manufacturing, (Tony, Gordy, Sir Eddy, Bob and me)  Ted explained and set us all straight about the realities of manufacturing in SE Asia.  *IF* You dont have an onsite QC manager, or contract with a reliable one, You WILL get junk,.  Its a cultural norm and just the business norm.  You have to push the stds and push hard constantly.  If you do that everything is okay, If you cut corners and dont have a trusted FPI and QC on site the results are predictable.  Despite the experience standing there, we ALL got a teachable moment and understood.  But this is universal... Read up on Val Page back in the early 1950s at BSA, Read up on Deming, the father of QC

There is documentation with Edward Turner who toured Suzuki and Hondas factories in the late 50s and thru the 1960s.  He told his driver, the Board and anyone who would listen that if British Industry did not get their act together they were all screwed.  In the mid 1960s my friend Cliff "Sandy bandit" Mahjors stood up at the annual dealers meeting on the Queen Mary in Long Beach harbor and stood up and went on a rant against the Triumph factory reps including ET himself, known for his explosive temper.

Cliffy said "You guys are F word Idiots and if you guys would just run things like Suzuki, All us dealers will die fat dumb and happy!"  Many though Cliff insane (he was actually) but Turner didnt get mad, and Cliff kept his dealership.

Here is a picture of Cliff across the table from me, and Eldon Wright..  Eldon was the US western region Triumph factory rep.  RIP Cliff and Eldon...Edit, pix too large.

[Rex]

  However they were manufactured on worn out machinery in deplorable working conditions.  Factor in wildly fluctuating quality control and parts shortages that meant some parts that SHOULD be scrapped or fall out for QC meant subpar parts were supplied.

Sorry, a lot of that is the largely the invention of Classic Bike and co decades ago. Doubtless some of the tooling in some of the British motor manufacturing sector was worn and obsolete, but a lot was renewed post-war, and pay and conditions in those factories was far from deplorable; workers from the Midlands motor factories were the first to make the Spanish package holidays popular as their pay was better than the Average Joe's.
You could have said about the story of the mythical machine moved from Bracebridge St to Plumstead that needed a bit of wood to make it cut straight. This story was said once as a joke and has now entered the ranks of the urban myths. I bet the originators are still laughing now every time some journo hack repeats it as "look how bad things were back then.."

Sure, the industries sat back for too long and coined it rather than invest, and sure, none of the western factories could match the Japanese for efficient cheap designs, but please don't try and make out it was because they toiling in some "dark satanic mill" for a pittance, and that they couldn't accurately produce parts on an industrial basis.

[Sluggo]

  However they were manufactured on worn out machinery in deplorable working conditions.  Factor in wildly fluctuating quality control and parts shortages that meant some parts that SHOULD be scrapped or fall out for QC meant subpar parts were supplied.

Sorry, a lot of that is the largely the invention of Classic Bike and co decades ago. Doubtless some of the tooling in some of the British motor manufacturing sector was worn and obsolete, but a lot was renewed post-war, and pay and conditions in those factories was far from deplorable; workers from the Midlands motor factories were the first to make the Spanish package holidays popular as their pay was better than the Average Joe's.
You could have said about the story of the mythical machine moved from Bracebridge St to Plumstead that needed a bit of wood to make it cut straight. This story was said once as a joke and has now entered the ranks of the urban myths. I bet the originators are still laughing now every time some journo hack repeats it as "look how bad things were back then.."

Sure, the industries sat back for too long and coined it rather than invest, and sure, none of the western factories could match the Japanese for efficient cheap designs, but please don't try and make out it was because they toiling in some "dark satanic mill" for a pittance, and that they couldn't accurately produce parts on an industrial basis.

Well, I personally did not toil away in the midlands, But while in the UK and around Europe I did try and see as much as I could, especially military history.  The thing that I admired about the UK is the cottage industries and the attitude of "We can fix anything" so, manufacturing is an area I find interesting.

So despite my lack of personal experience working in these industries in the UK, I have a lot of people I know who did, and I base my opinions far more on that than some magazine article, Although there is plenty of accounts published such as Hancoxs book, (production testors tales is a good read!) So, just completed John Rosamonds book as well, (some may disagree with his accounts, but it is an interesting perspective and a worthwhile read) so I would say both of those guys stories have creedence.
Some really interesting material is coming out regarding the AMC factory as well, The website and reunion information is quite compelling.  Hard to argue with their first hand accounts.

Sir Eddy is now RIP, but we were close friends for 2 decades, LOTs of stories from him, He apprenticed at Glacier bearings and came to the US in 58, As a Tool & Die maker he had a lot of input about the conditions of UK manufacturing vs US.  while many years apart we both were employed by the same Aerospace manufacturer.

My neighbor Tony Parsons apprenticed at a place called Crabtrees? (Somewhere in Yorkshire)  He said the place has been in business since the 1600s or some ancient age??  He runs a company here in the US called ProMet and manufactures Aerospace components and again, A wealth of info on UK manuf vs US. He is an avid collector of cars and motorcycles and we discuss theory, QC, The Asian threat, US and UK mindsets and politics.  Very outspoken, 

I can go on with about a dozen more,, All with backgrounds and apprenticeships in UK industrial and now here in the US.  Theres a guy up in the NW Norton club who used to be a writer for Monty Python!  Robin B.. He is sure fun to hang around and has great stories!   One of those very interesting I didnt get to talk to in person who was supposed to attend our rally is a former Norton engineer, He was lured away and went to work for Harley and did design work.  It was an interview via skype, But he discussed at length the difference between working for Norton in the UK and then working at HD and his insights were quite compelling.  I have a long list of questions for him, especially the period where he worked with Eric Buell on vibration and Isolastics.   But he was also involved in the Combat Commandos and had the rooms attention when discussing the short comings and debacle of that issue.
Later that day we had a 30 minute skype interview with Peter Williams, who I think you might agree has a few insights of his own.

But on the other side of the coin, Had similar discussions on the AJS-Matchless group and the debate elicited a interesting response from this fellow, Here it is in his words:

This a well thought out and well written summary of the industry back in the day. I worked my way through Engineering school at a BSA shop, and then was the first paid employee of a Honda shop in Ann Arbor. I was very impressed with the precision of the "cheap" Japaneses bikes. My first MC was a basket case 1947 Harley and my second was was basket case Cushman, so I had experienced American "quality" as well.

Honda of Ann Arbor started selling Nortons, Velocettes, Ducati, Moto Guzzi, Montesa, and Ossa. The owner, Bob Taylor, was an anal retentive engineer and we virtually rebuilt every non-Honda that we sold. (As an aside, Honda distributed Jeeps and Cessnas in Japan for many years and re-manufactured every on they sold -- taking a week to prep a Jeep for sale). I was in touch with all the distributors to get whatever inside information I could get. Our Spanish bikes didn't seize up routinely due to porous castings like other dealers', the Italian bikes we sold had most electrical problems fixed before they stranded the owners, we figured out why Honda 50s and 150s had weak crankshafts and cautioned the owners how to avoid expensive repairs (Hondas were not perfect -- I was national parts manager at American Honda and we sold more 150 crankshafts than we sold of that model; ie. over 100 % failure rate), and you all will understand that the British bikes we sold were un-fixable for a re asonable cost for the dealer, so they leaked -- we warned every buyer, but they still leaked and the owners were very vocal about the problems they experienced. Our service manager had a BMW and even its" quality was a problem when he carefully blue-printed it before leaving for a trip around the US and Candada -- phone calls to keep touch were filled with his travails with the BMW. I raced Zundapps, Matchless singles, Montesas and Hondas. I could keep the German, Spanish, and Hondas on the track with only routine rebuilds, but the Matchless family always seized lightly after rebuilds to factory specs, required a tear down to polish the scuff marks off the pistons (and then they rattled but were fast -- but it was sometimes problematic to race left side shifts and right side shifts during a day at the races).

I was raised in Flint and my father was in skilled trades at Buick. I learned about automotive repairs fixing my Fords, Nashs, and Chevrolets and often toured the Buick and Chevrolet factories because our teachers in High School were always trying to dissuade us from going to work in factories for quick, good pay rather than going on to college (my best friend in school went directly into Chevrolet for a wage that it took me 9 years of college and 20 years in management to equal) so they took us on school trips to the foundry and shop floor in early June to see the working conditions that came with the high pay, and it certainly made an impression '--- but only 28 out of a graduating class of over 600 got college degrees. The working conditions in the American Auto industry, combined with the quality of machinery back then allowed the imports to easily exceed the American quality. So the quality of most American vehicles (MC and automobiles) was far short of today and short o f buyer expectations.We won a lot of sales contests at Honda of Ann Arbor and award trips to Honda factories in Japan (and later in Ohio)blew us away when compared to the US factories. Award trips England blew us away that the MC factories there were worse than the US factories, with crude and tired machinery and miserable working conditions (more like the US industry when Ford "invented" the assembly line early in the 20th century).

One of my early professional jobs was quality control manager of a parts supplier to Ford and GM. The specs of many parts were impossible to achieve (+ or - .005 on the length of a 30 inch long rubber hose) and the components that were received from GM to include in our assemblies for them were out of spec when we received them. The industry was so bad that our cars for a while were almost as bad as Italian, French, and British cars. I took a graduate course with Dr. William Demming, the father of quality control, and we all realized that it would be a long, uphill battle to improve quality in the US products. Dr. Demming coached the Japanese in QC when he was ignored by the US automakers during and after WW2, and the turn-around in Japanese quality in the 50's was the beginning of their assault on the US automobile market (and the world's MC market). Look at the difference between Honda's first late 50's MCs vs their bikes in the early 60's to see what "will" and government support can do in a short time.

In short, there was an incredible lack of quality in the MC world for many, many years -- when our vintage bikes were produced. I have worked on 40's German bikes (NSU, Zundapp and BMW) and they had it almost right -- but it took challenges by the Japanese years later to motivate the rest of the MC world to produce quality products.

Sorry I rambled.

Best regards, Wally Weir

[Joolstacho]

Fascinating insights Wally, ta.

[Tomcat]

Jack, as Dutch said, the rigid tank is different to the plunger tank.
The plunger tank should fit, though.

Yes, the plunger tank interchanges with the rigid tank as that's what was on my YA7 for years.

[Tomcat]

This is a YA7 rigid tank

[Tomcat]

And a ZA7 rigid tank, which looks the same as a YA7 tank.
As far as Indian parts are concerned they are great if you wish to ride your motorcycle, but no good if you wish to show your motorcycle.

[Rex]

Your last sentence is a*se about face, surely?
A new chrome tank may look nice but soft-as-cheese big-end bolts etc will mean you won't go far..

[vinver]

If you're still looking, I may have an original BSA A7 rigid oil tank spare. I'm in Canada, let me know and I'll sort through my stuff. It is different from the plunger tank ( the rear section of the plunger tank is  cut away to clear the toolbox )
Cheers, Vincent