The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: Lindsay S on 23.12. 2024 17:32
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I have been looking at fitting a Norton Commando type oil filter to my ‘58 Golden Flash. I really didn’t want to fit it in the tool box, firstly because I carry tools and secondly because I don’t like the idea of a filter, with its two connections, hiding where you are not going see if they are starting to leak with a view to letting-go altogether! Placing it behind the gearbox, where Norton put it, would have been nice but the filter won’t physically fit because the gearbox plates are too close together. I wasn’t too keen on the spot between the engine and gearbox as this area would make primary chain (gearbox position) adjustment awkward.
Eventually, I decided to take the lead of Royal Enfield and their 650 Interceptor, where they place their filter between the front down tubes.
I made up a little mounting plate that picks up on each side of the bottom stud on the front engine plate and hung the filter from that.
The result is a filter that is easy to get at and with no limitation with regard to size of cartridge. It can easily be replaced without making a mess and in my view, doesn’t look out of place; and I nearly forgot, as it is in the air stream, you get a little bit of oil-cooling too!
It needs to be tucked up as close to the bottom of the engine plates (0.8” from the centre of the stud to the filter fixing surface)as possible to facilitate an easy turn of the bottom hose that isn’t hampered by the right-hand bottom frame tube; I also placed my filter slightly left of centre for the same reason. Incidentally, the fixing stud hole on the filter mount are 5/16” UNF not 26tpi as some sellers say!
Despite using fairly thin sheet for my bracket (about 1/16”), the mount is very rigid and you could use plenty of force if the filter got really stuck!
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Very neat Lindsay, like it well.
Darn sight easier to get at and no more vulnerable than the one behind the gearbox on my Norton. Also much easier to fit the rubber seal and get the surfaces squeaky clean when replacing. How it helps to be able to see the thing!
I'm guessing you'll be up and running with this project fairly soon now??
Cheers, Bill
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Been out testing it today Bill!
How are you both?
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Looks like a boxer hanging his chin out.
Something is gonna hit it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxyLLSWK/IMG-2873.jpg)
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As is on a thread somewhere on this Forum, I removed the 'ski slope' behind the carb and put the filter between the engine plates. Sure, a little awkward to change, but well protected, simple to fit, and probably helps cool the oil a little.
Where you've put yours is similarish to where the Kawasaki W650s have theirs - tidy job.
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Hi All,
It looks a bit vunerable to me *????*
I built an engine for a custom Triumph some years ago and the filter was mounted in the same place
The filter got damaged by stones thrown up by the front tyre *sad2*
I have mounted filters in the toolbox and on a plate samwiched between the frame and toolbox
A forum search will show up some threads on various filter locations
John
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I don’t like the idea of a filter, with its two connections, hiding where you are not going see if they are starting to leak with a view to letting-go altogether! !
There’s no pressure in the return side. If it leaks it won’t leak much.
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Try telling the banjo on the oil feed to the rockers that!
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how have you routed the oil line from the crankcase i want pics, i don't think there is a danger of a brick hitting it with that mudguard
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Not easy to show but it comes from the return connection then turns through a smooth 180 degrees towards the front then a gentle 90 degree left turn into the lower filter mount connection.
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While you're down there mate you could sort out that billowing speedo cable... *smile*
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I know! Always a job to how to route the darned thing, it seem that no matter what I do there seems to be too much of it somewhere! Have you got any ideas before I snag it on a piece of street furniture?
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Me too I always have a problem with routing cables and the speedo one had an obvious route but no obvious places to tie it in.
Since I have the tank off, When I get home I will describe all the routes I have used and when you have finished laughing I am sure someone can tell me how to put it right.
John
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I know! Always a job to how to route the darned thing, it seem that no matter what I do there seems to be too much of it somewhere! Have you got any ideas before I snag it on a piece of street furniture?
Yes, buy a shorter one. You've likely got the route correct but there's just too much cable.
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I know! Always a job to how to route the darned thing, it seem that no matter what I do there seems to be too much of it somewhere! Have you got any ideas before I snag it on a piece of street furniture?
Yes, buy a shorter one. You've likely got the route correct but there's just too much cable.
Just so. There must be shorter ones available as mine cable ties to the frame.
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Least of my problems now! Just done a test ride on my newly built engine only to find glitter in the sump (just as well I had a filter, loads in there!). I have just started to strip it down as I write this.
This engine has been a pain from the start and it doesn’t look like it has finished with me yet! A real shame because it ran beautifully but just seemed too noisy, particularly on the drive-side, when I got back from a 30 mile spin ‘round the block’. Should have an answer by tomorrow, hope I haven’t done something stupid!
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Has it sat long enough to get corrosion in the drive side main?
That could cause noise and glitter.
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A possibility. It looked OK, no pitting on the rollers or race and the local precision engineer (a very knowledgeable guy with BSA engines) pronounced it good but the stuff I am getting in the sump is both ferrous and non-ferrous.I don’t recall having this sort of issue with an engine I have rebuilt before, and I have done quit a few bike and car engines over the years. Something is not right, I’m sure.
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What colour is the glitter? Is it magnetic?
My bet is a crank shim. since you have a filter there's a good chance you can save the big ends and TS bush.
My engine has some glitter (bronze) but it looks like the TS bush may have run in a bit, after the first run the oil has been clean, it too has a return filter.
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don't strip it yet---- too late by the sounds of things i had loads of glitter in mine after a rebuild but it stopped glittering. things have to bed in on these old girls, i suppose it depends on what's been done but you don't want a worty engine built by rivet man. baahh humbug to all i don't do chrimbo , never had a day off or new year. i am making up for it in my later years *beer* *beer* but the black&tans flowing are nothing to do with this chrimbo thing. thankyou for listening have a nice day.
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Too late but just as well! Nothing obvious yet but a finger full of fine swarf in the bottom of the timing chest. Crank turns smoothly with just perceptible end float and camshaft too turns smooth and free. This thread seems to have changed somewhat! Head and barrel off tomorrow and might even get the cases split.
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Nothing obvious found yet but that metallic ferrous and non-ferrous paste is coming from somewhere and I want to know where!
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I understand why you want to find out what's going on, but MAYBE it's a little premature. If you look at Berg's pictures of my engine after a botched rebuild, and the fact there was nothing on the sump plate, it could be simply a bit of 'running in'??
Not only was there colossal end float and 'up and down' movement of the crank, a ball bearing blocking one of the oilways, a crank seal on the wrong way round, valves a bit flattened on the ends, loads of blowback on the pistons (also broken piston ring), plus 4 failed ATDs which shoved grit around the engine, a tooth broken from the timing gear and a shredded timing side bearing - the bike still ran *ex* *ex* *eek* *eek* Looks like the crank end was welded back on as it runs a tad out of true.
Bergs was horrified with what he saw, but still put it back together and runs superbly. A little mixed glitter on the plate and a fair portion of gasket, but nothing dramatic.
I'm not much into Christmas either, but have a good day with your nearests and dearests. *beer* *beer* *beer* *beer*
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Happy Christmas Lindsay S,
Bugger,
It looks as though the cam and followers are not too happy *????*
Were they renewed in the overhaul?
It looks as though they are from a well worn engine *????*
The cam and followers depend on the PRV opening to feed the oil trough. On building a new engine I coat them with moly paste and fill the trough with oil.
Cam and follower wear makes shiney magnetic glitter
Piston rings and bore make grey magnetic paste
Piston alloy is non magnetic
John
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Cam is brand new 356 from SRM an I used the slippery stuff that they sent with it plus I filled the trough. The cam followers were re-faced to remove the wear ridge as there was plenty of hard stuff left on them and I don’t trust the new rubbish they sell now. They look worse in the picture but they look OK in the flesh.
It looks like source of the tiny silvery magnetic pieces may have come from the drive side main. I removed the inner race and flushed it onto a clean piece of white kitchen towel and found a few particles. On dismantling the bearing, I found some areas where the surface in corner was breaking up, similarly on the outer race; I should have replaced it and the seal on the build; lesson learned! Every thing else looks perfect; as it should. I guess I won’t get the bits I need till after the seasonal madness!
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I hope that's all it is mate - Merry Christmas!
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Bugga, oh what a shame. *sad2*
I wonder if the slight marks on the followers are the result of the bearing race material circulating in the oil? Is the timing side bush unmarked?
Filters are a good idea but they are not perfect and particles smaller than say 20 micron (depending on the filter specs) will still get through.
Hopefully you have caught it in time, well done for stopping and stripping it right down straight away *yeah*
Another good idea is a magnetic sump plug and a magnet in the bottom of the oil tank I reckon.
Whatever you find now, cleaning and flushing everything in the oil circuit is a must as I'm sure you would be aware Lindsay.
Getting back to the original post concerning placement of your filter, I've attached a picture of the W800 filter which as Worty said is in a similar location although a bit more tucked in between the frame tubes. As you can see Kawasaki saw the need for a very nicely executed stainless steel cap, partly to look more shiny (at least it does when its clean!) than a bare filter but mainly to protect it from flying stones etc.
maybe something you could do once its all back together again. Good luck with it all anyway.
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The followers are the only thing that give me slight concern but the marks on them are nothing you can feel and as far as I can see, are just evidence of the cam sliding over them. Jolly bad design really when you compare them to the Royal Enfield ones that rotate and the ‘series’ Land Rovers with their roller tappets!
As for my filter, I don’t think it looks any worse than other places they have been mounted, except inside the tool box! Certainly peace of mind to have a proper filter somewhere, especially with modern oils.
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Getting back to the original post concerning placement of your filter, I've attached a picture of the W800 filter which as Worty said is in a similar location although a bit more tucked in between the frame tubes. As you can see Kawasaki saw the need for a very nicely executed stainless steel cap, partly to look more shiny (at least it does when its clean!) than a bare filter but mainly to protect it from flying stones etc.
The cap is a very good idea, particularly as the Kawasaki mudguard is short so the underside of the engine and oil filter get continuously blasted with grit, stones, water, salt, etc (I have now put on a mudflap which makes a massive amount of difference).
As for the original, valanced Beeza guard, it's enough to prevent anything from small mammals to land mines hitting the filter. *eek*
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Cam is brand new 356 from SRM an I used the slippery stuff that they sent with it plus I filled the trough. The cam followers were re-faced to remove the wear ridge as there was plenty of hard stuff left on them and I don’t trust the new rubbish they sell now. They look worse in the picture but they look OK in the flesh.
It looks like source of the tiny silvery magnetic pieces may have come from the drive side main. I removed the inner race and flushed it onto a clean piece of white kitchen towel and found a few particles. On dismantling the bearing, I found some areas where the surface in corner was breaking up, similarly on the outer race; I should have replaced it and the seal on the build; lesson learned! Every thing else looks perfect; as it should. I guess I won’t get the bits I need till after the seasonal madness!
When I´m looking at the photos seems that there has been tapered roller bearing!? Am I right? There should be roller bearing NFL30, R130L or LRJA30. What marking there is on the bearing? If there has been tapered rolling bearing it has been pushing the crankshaft towards the timing side bush!
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Lindsay, I am looking at your photo of the Timing side bush/bearing. There appears to be balls or rollers in that bearing. Does it have the Timing Side SRM conversion.? If not, what is happening?
Col
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No tapered bearing, just the ordinary roller main; probably fitted in Birmingham 66 years ago!
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Looks like a standard lipped roller bearing to me. But more bemusing is the timing side main which looks like an end fed crank conversion, (reckon I can make out some rollers) but with what appears to be a bronze outer track....I would have expected all steel. Cam bush looks a bit thinner on the face...is the cam gear kissing the crankcase?
Choice of type and brand of drive side main bearing is more wide these days, plenty on the forum featuring bearings which demount easier than the original type. If it is an end fed conversion, does the timing side bearing now eliminate crank float? I'm sure earlier incarnations used a bearing which combined axial and radial limits.
As stated, maybe this glitter was part of the initial bedding in process. Cleaning out the tank, watching and checking could have saved a lot of work.
Looks like Col has also had the same thought about the timing side...not what it first appears?
Swarfy
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I'm with you Swarfy, that looks like a TS roller conversion with a bush on the end. Doesn't look end fed. Probably needs to come apart and check how the end float is set on the exact conversion to make sure one bearing is not fighting the other. That could explain the chips on the DS bearing edge.
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Yes Rob. That crank needs to come out so we can see what's going on. The threads don't look even and I am wondering if there is an element of RM in this engine's previous life.
Swarfy.
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Steady on! There’s no needle bearings it’s just a bog-standard A10 engine and what you are seeing on the timing side is an indelible shadow of the teeth of the ts pinion. The engine is on the bench, everything apart from the drive side main is good and once that arrives it will all go back together. As regards the glitter in the oil, as some have said, that may be normal for a freshly built engine but I just wanted to satisfy myself that nothing nasty was going on. I would rather do that than have that niggling thought on my mind every time I threw my leg over it! When it comes to it, it is no big deal to pull and strip one these engines and it beats sitting in front of a tv spewing out rubbish!
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Well it certainly fooled me!!
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To stay on topic I took a couple of pictures of my return filter set up. Its the usual Norton clone. My objective was to keep it out the way and to use the standard oil pipes in case I wanted to revert. I tapped it and fitted a pair of engine oil pipe unions and its bolted under the battery tray. The short pipe to the tank is just long enough for about 1/2" of flexy.
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Nice job but not one that I could do because I have got a ski slope and standard air filter.
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Yes, mine was missing the ski-slope, air-filter and came with a Concentric so I had more options.
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Nice job but not one that I could do because I have got a ski slope and standard air filter.
You could remove the ski slope and put the oil filter between the engine plates like mine. Won't interfere with the standard air filter either.
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As a follow up to my last posting, the engine is all back together (for the second time!) and has done just over 200 miles with its external filter sitting between the front down tubes. It hasn’t been obliterated by a rock so far, in fact it picks up very lin the way of road dirt considering the muddy state of our roads at the moment. I’ve had no wet sumping and the return to the tank has been instantaneous on startup changing to a steady stream periodically punctuated with air bubbles after a few seconds. The oil filter is situated about an inch higher than the sump plate.
I am certainly glad that I didn’t fit the filter above the gearbox as I have since had to remove the ski jump in order to replace a very worn gearbox position adjuster but that is another story!
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I am certainly glad that I didn’t fit the filter above the gearbox as I have since had to remove the ski jump in order to replace a very worn gearbox position adjuster but that is another story!
I've never had a problem with the positioning of the filter in place of the ski slope between the engine plates. IMO, it's more discreet and doesn't impact on the 'look' of the engine. It may be a little bit more involved to change the filter, but it does look very neat. *dunno*
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Not that much of an eyesore Worty!
I’m afraid I’m all for practical when it comes to such things. Where it is, I can easily get a wrench round it and a catch tray underneath when it comes to changing and I know how tight those things can be when the have been on for a little while! Could it also act as an oil cooler, I don’t know. I still have my ‘ski slope’ so between the plates is not on because, without the ‘slope, I lose the bottom mounting for the air cleaner. ….anyway!
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What does the bottom mounting for the air cleaner look like - I don't have anything like that on mine??
Fair enough with the rest of it mate, not suggesting it's an eyesore but I do like the way mine went on - suits me I suppose. *smile*
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Hi Worty, it looks a bit like this!
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Must be one for the earlier s/a. My '61 GF has a pancake filter which frees the space up for the filter.
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I reckon that looks alright Mr Lindsay and that's a very nice looking MGA is it lurking behind?
The only problem I can think of with that choice of position is its vulnerability to the odd piece of flying conn rod that have a habit of appearing at the most inconvenient times... but hopefully you'll never find out! *smile*