The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Bikes, Pictures, Stories & more => Chat, Offtopic & Everything Else => Topic started by: Greybeard on 01.01. 2021 10:31
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BBC News - India's love affair with classic British motorbikes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54997191
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Work of a Z grade repeater or perhaps a work experience student .
Researched thoroughly on Face book .
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I think the fact it's being covered on the BBC News feed is interesting.
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BBC News - India's love affair with classic British motorbikes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54997191
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Who is excited:
https://www.bsacompany.co.uk/
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It is the sort of marketing hype I was expecting
The only people desperate enough to sign on would be ametur bike testers who did not qualify for a pre release test ride .
To comply with modern EPA regulations the bike will be nothing like a BSA
And you can't "rebirth" some thing that was not born before.
It is just a recycling of a name in the vein hope of some instant market recognition.
Don't know about the UK but about 1 in 500 people I run across on my bike actually have any idea what a BSA is or was.
AFATK the only prejapanese bike was a Harley .
Remember for the modern generation, if it is not on face book it is not real.
Recycling Ariel or Rocket III does not seem to have gone all that well.
The new Indians do not seem to be getting anywhere near the market penetration as the Buells it replaced either .
Considering it was over 50 years ago since the last BSA was made ( ignoring the way overpriced thinly disguised SR 400 / SR 500 Gold Stars ) , any one old enough to have ridden one new is just about at the end of their riding life .
The hipsters will want a "retro" stying with lots of chrome.
The boy racers will want a crutch rocket with miles of plastic & loud exhausts
The EPA will want neither
two weeks earlier then they could have piggy backed on the Glasgow climate conference for the battery powered models
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I'm inclined to agree. Too little too late.
For myself, whilst I have some enthusiasm for the Guzzi brand, and they do have a continuous linage stretching all the way back to 1921 I still wouldn't have a new one. Happy to a stick to the older stuff.
Conversely I am intending to buy an Enfield Himalayan this year though. But that has nothing to do with the the name/brand. I've used one before (actually in the Himalayas as it happens), I want to do a lot more mixed surface riding out in mainland Europe, and I think it is not a bad bike at a very keen price.
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I don't see why the BSA name should not achieve the same success as Triumph and Norton. I'd love to see something like the Kawasaki W800 as a new BSA.
I wonder if the first bike will be a rebadged Jawa.
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All these old names are resurfacing as nostalgia clearly sells bikes.
Surely no-one would expect any new bike to be even remotely like the bikes produced fifty years ago?
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Remember for the modern generation, if it is not on face book it is not real.
Trevor,
I basically agree with everything you've said here, except, you're off about a half a generation regarding Facebook. "Modern generation" is not using it so much anymore. If you could create a BSA dance we'd like to see it on Tik Tok (which, by the way, I am yet to look at once).
Richard L
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https://www.bsacompany.co.uk/
that's a free wordpress site built with the publicly available 'GrandPrix' theme on a low cost shared host: samotorcycles.wpengine.com./35.246.122.150
all the links try to sell you gloves.
i wouldn't get my hopes up on that one. maybe register if you want some cheap gloves?
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Possibly related ?
https://www.rushlane.com/new-motorcycle-spied-royal-enfield-rival-jawa-bsa-bajaj-triumph-12410194.html
S
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Hi All,
I have read elsewhere that the new BSA's are being launched on Dec 4th , I think at the NEC Bike show ?
John
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https://www.bsacompany.co.uk/
that's a free wordpress site built with the publicly available 'GrandPrix' theme on a low cost shared host: samotorcycles.wpengine.com./35.246.122.150
all the links try to sell you gloves.
i wouldn't get my hopes up on that one. maybe register if you want some cheap gloves?
So not all the internet scammers come from Nigeria then ?
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All these old names are resurfacing as nostalgia clearly sells bikes.
Surely no-one would expect any new bike to be even remotely like the bikes produced fifty years ago?
Do they ?
Did not seem to work for the new Ariel
How many Rocket III do you see on a daily basis ?
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I don't see why the BSA name should not achieve the same success as Triumph and Norton. I'd love to see something like the Kawasaki W800 as a new BSA.
I wonder if the first bike will be a rebadged Jawa.
Success ?
all the name Norton has done in the past 30 years is gobble up millions and send investors broke
Triumph was only gone for short periods
Iy has been 50 years since BSA was on the sides of a petrol tank
The Gold SR did not seem to do too much good for BSA -Regal
add to that Norton had a name for being exciting.
BSA was what you bought for going to work or inherited from an old uncle , hoping the Bantam was really a Gold Star .
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But as we know, any young buyers will not be aware of the history of BSA. The appeal will be the retro appeal of other legendary British bike brands, Royal Enfield, Triumph, Norton and Matchless.
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They are all trading on a name take away the name and what have you got a nice looking bike but would not sell enough in numbers to justify production costs, Also because they have to meet modern regulations as to noise etc they cannot sound like the originals I suspect that what some owners will do will be like some harley owners they fit after market silencers to give the sound they want but when they go for an MOT they have change back to the orignal silencers or they will fail. Before the pandemic I was in town and went into a modern motocycle showroom to look at the new Royal Enfield Interceptor just out of curiosity it was a nice looking bike bike but nothing like the original Interceptor,. years ago I had a Royal Enfield Constellation which the Interceptor replace maybe that was why I went in to have a look.
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Of course any modern bike will bear little resemblance to a classic design. Anyone who's hoping for a brand new Gold Star or Golden Flash is deluded. I do not have a problem with a modern retro styled motorbike carrying the BSA badge. If the Kawasaki W800 had been branded as a BSA I would have been delighted.
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I don’t think there is any argument that Triumph have made a success and done well out of their modern era range. The Rocket III is very much a flagship and niche model so whether many have sold and whether money was made on that particular model is probably moot. However there was not so long between sales of the Les Harris Bonnevilles ending and the marketing of the all new models – all in line with Bloor’s plan I presume. And he chose to go head to head with the Japanese in terms of models at the outset at least. Interesting though just how popular the later introduced retro models have proven to be.
Looking at other successful retros, we can consider both Guzzi and Enfield or Harley of course, who actually have an unbroken line of production, and an outdated range of machines that then naturally fit into a retro theme now.
Of the others, and I’m not sure how well Kawasaki’s W650 and W800 range actually did - you don’t actually see many of them about at all, so it may be that has been no great success story at all. Maybe the Chinese tiddlers, and that may be more due to being competitive on price.
If you want to use one of the old brands now, whether it be BSA or Norman, Francis Barnett or any of the others you’re not going to get fat on sales to old duffers like us. If you are looking to the hipster market then for sure you want a lot of cool branded old school looking accessories and apparel.
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When production of the Royal Enfield Bullet went to India over the years they did modernise it but if You took the Royal Enfield badge off it you would still be able to recognise it as a Bullit and it did sell well this cannot be said for the new Interceptor or most of the new modern retro bikes,as I say take the name off and it could be anything. I am not expecting Mahindra to reproduce a Gold Flash or Gold Star, but I would hope that if you took the name off you would still be able to recognise it as a BSA.
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.... I would hope that if you took the name off you would still be able to recognise it as a BSA.
I can pretty much guarantee there will be nothing in common with the classic bike except the badge and the model name. What's the bet's the first model will be a single so will be named Gold Star. 😉 We'll be lucky if it has spoked wheels.
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Very true, though we can at least console ourselves with the thought that even if BSA had managed to continuously exist up to the present day, the bikes it would be producing now would also have no connection to the bikes we recognise as the BSAs from 1960s/70s Small Heath.
Retro nostalgia is a niche market and will only sell so many bikes.
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THis was posted on the vincent website: https://www.vincentownersclub.co.uk/threads/bsa-return-of-a-legend.16272/ (https://www.vincentownersclub.co.uk/threads/bsa-return-of-a-legend.16272/)
"2nd December 2021.
National Motorcycle Museum, Coventry Road, Bickenhill, Solihull, West Midlands B92 0EJ
Timelessness is a pursuit, and for BSA, it has come to fruition.
As The BSA Company is ready to begin its next chapter, BSA are pleased to invite you for an exclusive preview of the newest BSA motorcycle and a showcase of the shape of things to come.
Dress code: Business smart
Exclusive access to the National Motorcycle Museum after the show.
https://www.bsacompany.co.uk/rsvp/ (https://www.bsacompany.co.uk/rsvp/)"
I hope some of you brits can get us some real pictures!
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Looking closely at the "Return of a Legend" image, above, they're giving some hints. as in low bars, on-top tach and speedo, etc. I'm not sure they were counting on some enthusiast (uuh? nutcase?) running photo editor on their image.
Richard L.
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I was hoping for a bit more from the main site https://www.bsacompany.co.uk/ (https://www.bsacompany.co.uk/), but I'm still none the wiser.
Appreciate it wont be "proper" goldie or road rocket or rocket 3, but I'm still very interested to see what they come up with, the rumour mill seems to suggest its a 650 single with a lot of preunit swing arm model tells like the oil tank shape (from the india pictures in camo). It even appeared to have a dynamo external cover a bit like a B33 ???
Hopefully we'll soon see and not be too disappointed.
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Ultimately is anyone on this list really going to buy one whatever they look like?
I rather doubt it.
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Ultimately is anyone on this list really going to buy one whatever they look like?
I rather doubt it.
I might, so I can still attend BSAOC club weekends on a bike I can start easily. Probably not though.
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Ultimately is anyone on this list really going to buy one whatever they look like?
I rather doubt it.
I might, so I can still attend BSAOC club weekends on a bike I can start easily. Probably not though.
I dont currently own anything modern, so may be tempted. but we wont see them in NZ for a while. I like middleweights and a 650 single should be light and punchy. I did briefly float the idea of an oilfield constipation but they dont really do it for me. Quite likely the new BSA may be the same. When BSA released the B50 goldstar SS, they copped a lot of flak for using the sacred name on a glorified tiger cub. I'm still very interested to see what they come up with.
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mahindra did a good job with the jawa, so I'm not writing this off yet, give me a couple of weeks...
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Impressive attention to detail on the Jawa I have to say, that is probably the most retro retro I've seen to date, hats off to Mahindra for that effort.
The Enfield twins are nice bikes and very good value but I struggle a bit with the cheapo details and obvious corner cutting despite the very competitive pricing.
I do hope Mahindra don't play the Gold Star card from the outset as really what is left once they've done that? I can't imagine "Empire Star" sits too well with their marketing plans either for example despite being somewhat born out of a colonial heritage. Tricky minefield to navigate that one. As with all these Indian bikes their biggest market by far is the local one. Where they sell even cheaper of course!
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mahindra did a good job with the jawa, so I'm not writing this off yet, give me a couple of weeks...
Well that all depened upon how you remember Jawa
As the grey porridge Californian ( I had one ) 2 stroke
As the only engine for speedway & short circuit
As the old AJS vertical single copy ?
Now I see bits of all of them in those images but not enough of any of them to want to make me open my wallet.
Now the Indian market is around 10,000,000 bikes per annum
If they got 1% of that we are talking about 100,000 bikes a year
even 5% is not much less than the total Triumph annual production.
Now total UK motorcycle sales are not much more at 132,000 for 2019
And I doubt they will get much more than 5% of the UK market and in these days of small margins , 7,000 bikes are not enought to be profitable .
Compare that to Triumphs total production of around 60,000 bikes a year and is declining as they have become both too expensive and their target market ( us ) are falling off our perches.
The new bonnie is pretty popular down here amongst the die hard British bike riders who are not content to spend the required time to keep old bikes on the road.
So some other numbers
Total Chinese production is ( estimaed ) at 145,000,000 and that number is an estimate as a lot of bikes are made for foreign brands like BMW but shipped in crates with no wheels so when the Germans add the wheels they are considered to be made in Germany not China .
Now go to Made In China and search for petrol powered motorcycle and then electric powered motorcycles
See the sorts of ex-factory prices ( in US $ ) they are selling for then answer how much will it cost to make the same bike in the UK
So a dealer in the UK would be able to buy bikes from China with their own name on the tank in colours that have appeal in the UK, sell them for the same price as the "Born Again BSA's at 5 times the profit which is exacly what will happen if the "new BSA' looks like getting a reasonable market share
I could see the 125cc "Brexit Bomber" with Union jack painted fairing selling well. or perhaps the new 50cc "bantam" complete with Chook on the tank , $ 400 ex factory $ 500 landed and $ 1500 ( what ever that is in £ today ) on the shop floor with free helmet gloves & jacket . And that bike would be faster, stop better & be more frugal than the original chooks so should have a lot of nostalga eing most youngens will have heard of mum or dads days on a Bantam when they were young.
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Depressing but very true Trevor, its why I lost my job and Australia no longer has a car manufacturing industry. The only cars still being made in the UK are luxury brands and even their days must be numbered now.
In Enfield's case they make a profit in India and even selling at what is to us an inflated price that still represents very good value in USA/UK/Aus etc that is the icing on the cake to them. Huge volumes, economies of scale etc. The main battleground will be in India and that seems to be where Enfield and Jawa have a following, not sure about what the BSA brand means in India these days but my guess is Mahindra know what they are doing.
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If they copied the rgs and gold star models and fitted them with updated engineering and electric starters but kept the same look I think they would sell be even better if they copied the origional parts so we could have spares
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Depressing but very true Trevor, its why I lost my job and Australia no longer has a car manufacturing industry. The only cars still being made in the UK are luxury brands and even their days must be numbered now.
What, Civics, Astras, Minis, Corollas and MGs are luxury brands now? That said, I take your point.
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What, Civics, Astras, Minis, Corollas and MGs are luxury brands now?
Chinese MG ceased all UK production at Longbridge in 2016 and Honda ceased all UK production in Swindon in July 2021. Just saying
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What about Nissan in Sunderland, 7000 employees 500000+ cars made in 2017, not a UK company by UK made cars. Then there is Toyota in Derby, there may be others
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Jaguar/Land Rover owned by Tata. Bentley owned by Volkswagen. Rolls Royce owned by BMW!
If you stand on Winston Churchill's grave you can hear a sort of turning sound from down below.
What about Morgan?
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If they copied the rgs and gold star models and fitted them with updated engineering and electric starters but kept the same look I think they would sell be even better if they copied the origional parts so we could have spares
The new bike would have to be:-
oil tight
Have ABS breaking which means disc brakes
Be below 85 DBa ( which is why the Jawa is water cooled ).
Meet emission standards = fuel injected , OHC with bucket followers.
So it will never be anything like a GS
The SR 500 is what Yamaha had to do the XT500 to make it street legal back in the 70's
When California tried to bring in new niose levels HD claimed it was impossible to achieve them on an air cooled motorcycle
So Yamaha sent a bunch of them to California for type testing they did pass the exhaust noise test and total noise drive past test but failed the emissions test .
Don't know the truth in the remainder but it was reported that HD then managed to get the President to have a word in the Governors ear and the regulations were not implimented as California was around 2/3 of the total HD USA sales.
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Jaguar/Land Rover owned by Tata. Bentley owned by Volkswagen. Rolls Royce owned by BMW!
If you stand on Winston Churchill's grave you can hear a sort of turning sound from down below.
What about Morgan?
Well the UK had their chance under the Thatcher government
They could never be a competative power in motor vehicle manufacture while they had all of those small volume brand coming out of outgrown cottage industries, particularly as a lot of the models on offer were not particularly good.
I remember at the time all of the motor journals salivating about what could have been but the narrow minded biggotted perochial managers just kept on squabbling amongt themselves so signed their own death warrants, much like the board of BSA when the first intelligent decision to come out of management for decades proposed that all of the bikes to be assembled at a single brand new modern factory dedicated to assembly while Small Heath, Redditch & Kitts Green be turned over to parts manufacture & engine assembly as there was just not enough space to both manufacture & assemble at any of them.
For BSA -Triumph , that alone would have knocked near 1/3 off the factory gate price of both brands and made them almost price competative in the USA against the Japanese bikes even before allowing savings on being able to triple the annual production . They may even have been price competative at home , but no the plant managers squabbled & fought amongst themselves then wasted £ 2,000,000 shoehorning what was supposed to be a straight line assembly track round & round in circles into the 2nd floor of the new building at Small Heath .
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The death rattles of these old industries has been kicked over so much over the last few decades that no-one now knows what was reality and what was Chinese whispers of "well my mate from down the pub told me that..." or the more usual now "I read somewhere on the Net that..."
Everyone has their favourite anecdotes and a few of them might even have a grain of truth, but all are subject to that perfect 20:20 hindsight vision.
Either way, the rise of the Asian industries shook all the Western manufacturers to some extent, and now in turn the up-and-coming Asian manufacturers are affecting the Old Guard Japanese manufacturers.
In twenty years there'll be people in Yokohama sighing over why they didn't fit ABS brakes to the 50cc range or bemoaning the fact that they were too little too late to the electric scooter craze or some other such minutaie allegedly causing the loss of local industries.
Change is a constant, and all that.
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The death rattles of these old industries has been kicked over so much . . .
Change is a constant, and all that.
Spot on Rex. The only constant, they say.
You can't make an instant 'classic' but good things will earn that status over time.
Some less good things seem to have gained it 'unearned' too - but that's a whole other story.
A retro effort embodying even a small proportion of the warts that caused the original manufacturers to die isn't going to cut it these days.
If we want a 'classic' and are prepared to suffer the pain for the pleasure, then there are plenty out there still luckily.
If we want a 'modern', there are zillions.
If we want a 'modern with classic touches' then they're in the second category, being first and foremost 'Modern', whether they have evolved over the years like Morgans and Hardly-Ablesons, or had resurrected names appended to cash in on brand nostalgia.
There could be nothing worse than modern stuff that doesn't work, and of course, as we all know, there's nothing better than classic stuff that does!
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https://www.mtdmfg.com/news/reborn-bsa-set-to-unveil-all-new-motorcycle-next-month/
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https://www.rideapart.com/news/550790/bsa-motorcycle-live-unveiling-2021/
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https://www.apcuk.co.uk/funded-projects/bsa-company-ltd-the-electric-bsa-project/ (https://www.apcuk.co.uk/funded-projects/bsa-company-ltd-the-electric-bsa-project/)
the companies model names like lightning and golden flash and many others, just begging to go on an electric bike ;)
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I'm hoping for an updated a65. Fingers crossed
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https://www.mtdmfg.com/news/reborn-bsa-set-to-unveil-all-new-motorcycle-next-month/
Well at least this journo got it right.
Of around 50 reports ( reporting nothing ) who ever wrote this is the only person to date with their facts about BSA correct
Well at least it shows motorcycle journalism has not evolved one vowel since 1973