The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Frame => Topic started by: RichardL on 04.09. 2018 02:31
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It seems original early seat pans are hard to come by, at least over here. About a year ago, when a pair of early and late (late being the wider comfy couch) rusty seat pans came up on eBay in a single sale, I passed on buying them at auction. After the sale I contacted the seller and made a not-great-but-OK deal for the early model. It was quite rusty and I knew it would be a project. Anyway, today I finally started the restoration by making a paper pattern for the repair areas, then cutting out 16 GA. steel sheet that I can weld in place with oxyacetylene. The rest of the pan is quite solid and just needs sandblasting.
One of the pictures shows my sheet metal shape-cutting shear that I bought in 1978 to make furniture for discotheques. Heck, I must have used it at least twice since then.
Richard L.
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Well done. Let's see the finished pan.
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G'day Richard.
I'm sure it will give you a lot of satisfaction bring it back from the dead. Two things I dislike working with. Sheetmetal and rust.
Cheers
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Profess in little bites.
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Profess in little bites.
You probably mean progress, well done, cheers
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Yes, i think I just confessed a few minutes ago to terrible thumb typing. I profess to confess, now rhat's progress.
Richard L.
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It would be very dishonest to not show my hideous tack welds before grinding, so the photos are before and after rough grinding. Not done, of course.
Richard L.
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Nice tidy workshop. Rather like my own.
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Indeed. Plenty of room. to put tools down on that bench and then struggle to find them. Just like mine aswell. Well done Richard with the seat, way beyond anything i can do.
*smile* *eek* *good3*
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That is looking good. I'm really impressed with the nose piece. How did you form that?
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Jachenbach,
Talk about a slow reply! *eek* it's been long enough now that I have to reconstruct my memory of how I did it. I believe I wedged the blank between my vice jaws and a body dolly and worked my way around with a body hammer.
Richard L.
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Well, I think I'm done welding and grinding as much as I care to. It's all oxyacetylene welded, and I believe I've made it clear (in confession and works) that I'm a terrible welder. It's structurally sound, so what's a few pinholes? It is, after all, a seat pan where everything will be concealed. Nevertheless, it will get sand blasted and I might throw a bondo skimcoat on it to make myself feel good. I think it's going to look good when done and represent the "1955" on the title much better.
Richard L.
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I just said I was done welding, but I've decided otherwise. I don't like the looks of the vertcal seams midway back along the sides. Those have to be quite good for structural integrity. Also, I predicted one of you would be telling me the same thing and wanted to get in front of it.
Richard L.
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Richard,
That looks good, and as you say as long as its strong its fine.
Instead of a coat of bondo, that would be a great place to practice body solder if its a skill you ever wanted to try.
It actually becomes part of the seat pan, and will be much stronger than bondo.
And if the leading does not go as planned, nothing lost.
Lee
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Looking good Richard, kudos for the effort....The seat pan of my Gutzzi completely rusted away under me, so I had to remake it bestI could using stainless sheet...worked out ok, but challenging...then I did it again using a bit cut from my old van rear door, but that's not so flash and still a work in progress..
Oxy is good for many things, but these days, gasless MIG's are fairly cheap(and cheap), but still well worth the investment, and much better for sheet work
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Oxy is good for many things, but these days, gasless MIG's are fairly cheap(and cheap), but still well worth the investment, and much better for sheet work
Hmm. I have a gasless MIG and think I'm worse with that than oxy. I did use it for the tack welds. It's all very embarrassing because I spent a lot of my youth as a helper (not really apprentice) to some really good pipe fitters, my dad being a mechanical and HVAC contractor and a
pretty good fitter himself. I need to practice both.
Richard L.
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Nice job. Richard. Nothing wrong with that. Had to do the same with mine.
BTW, I agree re oxy / mig. I'll put my arc / oxy welding against most people, but my mig is rubbish. Trouble is, when working with old material, the section / thickness varies and so therefore does the heat required. Easy to control with a flame, but a mig stays the same and the wire just keeps pouring out regardless..... I can do a neat mig job on new material (provided it's not intricate, where TIG would be required) but but otherwise I leave it alone. And don't ask about my TIG 'expertise'....
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Thats what I did with one of my seats. New metal around the front sides and the same again at th rear of the seat. Looks ok now painted.
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Been gas welding for decades and now days specalize in building up rust.
It is all about control and there is far more control with gas than any electric system ever made.
Gasless MIG ( which is a contradictions of terms ) is the hardest welding proceedure to master.
This has been told to me by so many professional welders it is not funny. Yet it is marketed to the inexperienced handyman.
Electric welding was invented as a production line tool and for use on VIRGIN material where the joint has been properly preparred it can not be beaten.
For doing repairs it is a different story, oxy is king, particularly when you understand how the different heats affect the microstructure of the joints.
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hi guys, yes Trev same here even back in the day `lead burning`with oxy/acet was a specialty when making lead flashing's. Acetylene has the ability to create its own barrier against oxidation while gas welding sheet metal and gas welding can be controlled to the speed of the welder. I now use oxy/l.p.g. but not any good for sheet metal but great for brazing and cutting, cheers
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For sheet metal repairs, Oxy Acetylene is by far the most versatile. I have stuck with it and my original supplier for a very long time, despite ever rising costs. There is very little price competition between national suppliers. Tried Mig, but this will only give good results on nice new clean metal, if you are just a casual user. It requires more skill and practice than the adverts would have you believe.
Most MIG Welds on vehicle body repairs I have seen are of the chicken shit surface finish, even from so called professionals, who cover their artwork with body filler. TIG seems to be halfway between, giving the convenience of electric welding with a much more controllable arc. I was fascinated to watch guys TIG weld stainless tubing, the arc was just like a candle flame, nice and soft with the metal pooling and moving easily into the joint. Very smooth welds, very little surface finishing required, but welding equipment relatively expensive for top brands.
Here in the UK, one downside to OxyAcetylene is that supply is in the hands of a few major players who make their money on gas bottle rental and fixed charges getting the bottles from the store. Also both bottles never run dry at the same time, so it is cheaper to swap both even though one still contains gas you have paid for. Meaning one service charge for two bottles, and a single journey to the depot. Oh yes, they will also charge you for an invoice, but crazily give you credit. In effect I am paying for the bad payers and the company's accounts department. Direct debit payments will avoid the invoice charge. I would always go for a cheaper cash on the nail deal, but there is no discount for prompt payment. With high charges I never have it delivered, for a couple of bottles it makes no economic sense for a small scale user like me. It really feels like money for nothing. Despite the well established British trading title, the company now has a strong European connection.
There are other suppliers for gases, with a business model without continuous bottle rental, but none of them seem to be able to supply acetylene.
Swarfy
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I bought my bottles new so that I wouldn't be in a rental agreement. Took the brand new bottles to the depot and swapped straight across for used bottles full of gas at the gas cost, only. I think this actually means I will never need to pay for recertification of the bottles.
Richard L.
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Here in the UK, one downside to OxyAcetylene is that supply is in the hands of a few major players who make their money on gas bottle rental and fixed charges getting the bottles from the store. Also both bottles never run dry at the same time, so it is cheaper to swap both even though one still contains gas you have paid for. Meaning one service charge for two bottles, and a single journey to the depot. Oh yes, they will also charge you for an invoice, but crazily give you credit. In effect I am paying for the bad payers and the company's accounts department. Direct debit payments will avoid the invoice charge. I would always go for a cheaper cash on the nail deal, but there is no discount for prompt payment. With high charges I never have it delivered, for a couple of bottles it makes no economic sense for a small scale user like me. It really feels like money for nothing. Despite the well established British trading title, the company now has a strong European connection.
BOC, British Oxygen Company. It's not bad is it, to mine your raw materials from the atmosphere and extortionately flog it back to your customers!
I had a lovely little BOC Portapack in the 1970's. It became unreasonable to pay the rent and cylinder charges just for the occasional hobby job. The kit is at my sisters but there are currently no gas cylinders for it. My best welding and brazing, (and cutting) was with OxyAcetylene. I have a cheap MIG now. I've never tried stick or TIG welding.
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hi guys, B.O.C. here too they took over N.Z.I.G. a few years back and announced that as from `blah/blah`year all oxy/acet bottles that we had purchased previously would no longer be filled but you could rent their new ones on a monthly basis and would be charged for refills every month whether you were empty or not!!!
I now get my refills from an independent supplier after buying their bottles, i m told that all acetylene bottles in N.Z. are filled in Indonesia somewhere, cheers
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Yes its a real shame that you can no longer get owner acetyline bottles filled in NZ but the Bunnings swap system seems ok on the face of it. Certainly better than going without!
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Finally done! Already lost a long story when a7a10.net stopped responding. So , just posting pictures now and may rewrite the story or put the picture in order later, if I find the will.
One thing I will say now. The blue upholstery foam was good quality but too soft for the whole seat. The gray/green foam is stiffer closed-cell type and is, literally, garden-variety kneeling cushions.
Richard L.
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More pictures of upholstery process.
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More photos.
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Of course, these posts are in the wrong order. See the oldest one in this string first.
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Great work Richard. Makes me wish i hadn't thrown away my rotten old base when i bought a pattern replacement. Of course i would not have been able to create anything as complete as yours. Maybe i could have given it to someone like yourself who could have given it a new life'
*good3* *clap*
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OK, here's a question for my elders and betters here (yes, at 71 you can call me "kid"). Are the rubber blocks pocketed below the seat supposed to ride on the frame? It looks like they are, but mine don't. Should I shim underneath them until they do?
Richard L.
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Great work Richard. Makes me wish i hadn't thrown away my rotten old base when i bought a pattern replacement. Of course i would not have been able to create anything as complete as yours. Maybe i could have given it to someone like yourself who could have given it a new life'
*good3* *clap*
Thanks, kindly. It's a good thing I don't have to do it for a living, but having done it myself is rewarding. Maybe unnecessarily, I put a lot of value on the idea of using an original pan. My bike is far from completely original. This is the result of about 10 years of wanting to replace my '60-'63 wide style (also restored by me) with the year-appropriate. ('55) '54-'59 style.
Richard L.
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Hi Richard,
Are the rubber blocks pocketed below the seat supposed to ride on the frame? It looks like they are, but mine don't. Should I shim underneath them until they do?
Yes, I would add packing into the seat "boxes" before the rubber blocks, until the seat is supported by the frame rails
John
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Thanks, John. That's what I thought. Do you know if this is common, or do I have an unusual situation? I'll also check the height and level of the bracket on the mudguard and mudguard itself.
Richard L.
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Hi Richard,
I don't really know how common the problem is, but what is common is to see sagged seats where no rubber blocks or
the screw in buffers on the frame missing (different seat type)
John
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Guys,
What with Peter's current search for a seat pan, and with time provided by staying home, I went back and read/re-read all the posts in this topic I started. It occured to me that, at the time, I was completely buried at work and did not give full due appreication for all your interesting posts. So, a year-and-a-half late, thanks for all your ideas, stories and recognition of my project.
Richard L.